Bishop Athanasius Schneider: The doctrine of God, redemption, and media, tricks of grace started in the second century. We sing Irenaeus, the doctor of the church second century.
Joe McClane: So why would the Vatican take issue with these titles?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Now suddenly, it comes at a note from the Vatican that says this title is always inappropriate. This is impossible. How can we see this is a rupture, a vertical rupture, accusing so many popes, so many doctors of the church of being used to something which is always inappropriate. Let us say this, this. This is the same as saying that these popes and saints and doctors of the church were deceiving the entire church, and therefore, this note is an abuse of power.
Joe McClane: By the way. My name is Joe McClain. I host a radio program called a Catholic Take where we look at the world through a Catholic lens. I’d love for you to hang out with us, if you like it. Give it a thumbs up and let us know what you think in the comments below. We’re having a conversation about the brand new book, No Greater Love, The True Meaning of martyrdom, by Bishop Athanasius Schneider, who is the auxiliary bishop of Kazakhstan. He joins us again this morning. Your Excellency. Good morning.
Thank you again for your time. By the way, we’re going to link to it in the show notes. Tan books.com Your Excellency, you talk about the Blessed Virgin Mary as an example, the preeminent example of martyrdom. I want to start with that. How is she a martyr? Number one and number two, I actually would love to get your take on the document that came out of the Vatican a couple of weeks ago on the titles of Mary. They want to exclude co-redemptrix and Mediatrix. I think if she is, in fact, a martyr, I think that makes it even more troubling to read this document. What say you, document? What say you, how is our Blessed Virgin Mary? How is she a martyr?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Syntax says that what makes someone a martyr is not so much the exterior suffering or the suffering, but the cause, the aim for which you suffer. And so our Lady, being the most pure, the immaculate creature on Earth, was able to suffer deeply as deeply as any creature. And the spiritual sufferings are deeper and in some way heavier than the corporal sufferings, and she suffered really beneath the cross. She was not a simple, mute spectator and viewer of the death of her divine son. She was suffering with him, Saint Bernard of Clairvaux, describing the sufferings of Our Lady, said that when the soldier pierced the heart of our Lord on the cross before he pierced him bodily, he pierced spiritually, Our Lady spiritually.
The sword pierced the soul of Our Lady first, and then moved to pierce bodily, corporally, the heart of our Lord on the cross. So our Lady suffered spiritually, really, all the anguish and anxiety of our Lord. She was with him the most close, and therefore, she is the queen of martyrs. Since our Lord is the source of His sacrifice on the cross and His death, the redeeming death, is the source of all martyrdom. Hence, the creature who was more closely united to Christ’s sufferings on the cross is Our Lady, evidently, and therefore, she is the queen of martyrs as the True Mother of the Redeemer and co rejamed tricks, in the sense that she co remrix means with, in Latin, co not equal, but with, simply with she accompanied with Christ, passing the most closest possible way, his sufferings, redeeming sufferings in a spiritual way.
Joe McClane: So why would the Vatican take issue with these titles?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: This is the question, and this is very sad, because this doctrine and the titles were used for a considerable time by the popes, by the ordinary Magisterium, by the liturgy, by the saints, by doctors of the church, and basically the doctrine of God redemption and Mediatrix of grace, started since the second century with saying Irenaeus, the doctor of the church second century, and he, he coined this phrase that through as the new Eve Mary on the side of the new Adam Christ. She, by her obedience, by her acceptance of the will of God, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the entire human race. Humanity in Latin, causa salutis, is a very strong expression of Saint Irenaeus, who was basically almost a disciple of Saint John, the apostle. And since then, the church developed and deepened this doctrine of the maternal, the motherhood of Our Lady, first, her divine motherhood, and so even the title Mother of God, Theotokos, was canonized and dogmatic, dogmatized by the church in the Council of Ephesus against the heresy of Nestorius, who said, Oh, this title Mother of God, it’s too difficult. We have to explain too much. It could be understood wrongly.
Okay, let us say only he was the mother of Christ. This is sufficient. And the church said, No, we have to stay. She is the Mother of God. And whoever will reject the title Mother of God will be excluded from the church, anathema, anathema, and so and the same is with the title corredamprix. It was developing and growing organically for 2000 years, and in the last centuries, confirmed by the use of the Pope either the doctrine of God’s redemption or the title, and then also the mediation of graces. And now, suddenly it a note comes from the Vatican which says, This title is always inappropriate. This is impossible. How can we see this is a rupture, a radical rupture, accusing so many popes, so many doctors of the church as being using something which is always inappropriate. Let us say this is the same as to say that these popes and saints and doctors of the church were deceiving the entire church during a considerable time; it is impossible, and therefore this note is an abuse of power, an attack against the previous, ordinary Magisterium. It’s an attack on so many doctors and saints, and it is not. It’s against the nature of the church to do ruptures, evident ruptures in doctrine. And I repeat, this is abuse of power.
It should not have been done, and it was no real case and reason to make such a declaration because the Popes always explained correctly to the faithful the meaning of God’s redemption, the meaning of mediatics, of grace. There was no cases of abuse of this title or of errors on the side of the faithful, and there was no need they could again explain, as the Popes did, but not make a ruptured and revolutionary declaration and let the church continue a peaceful discussion to mature even the church regarding, for example, the dogmatization, the dogma of the Immaculate Conception the church allowed for centuries, really for centuries, a discussion between the Dominicans who were against and the Franciscans, okay, let us mature. And then after many centuries, they came the time matured that the entire church was convinced this is the truth of God, and we can proclaim it with sureness. And so should be done also with this doctrine of redemption and mediation, of the graces of Our Lady.
Joe McClane: Amen.