Fr. Mitch Pacwa: I stand up, sit down, kneel, stand up, sit down, kneel. As Catholics, what we do with our bodies matters. We worship with our entire person, our bodies as well as our minds and souls, because Christ gave His body for us, and we’ll talk about that tonight. So please stay with us.
Welcome. I’m Father Mitch Pacwa, and welcome to EWTN Live, our chance to bring you guests from all over the world. Before we get to tonight’s guest, I just want to offer congratulations to the Crimson Tide. The University of Alabama just won the championship. Coach Saban and his young men did a great job, and I want to congratulate them on their good work. Salute. Now, I want to talk about our guest tonight. He comes all the way from the country of Kazakhstan, where he is the Auxiliary Bishop of the Diocese of Astana in Kazakhstan, and he is here to help us come to a deeper understanding of adoring Christ in the Eucharist, something he focuses on in his book Dominus Est, It Is the Lord. So please welcome Bishop Athanasius Schneider.
Now, a number of folks are going to be a little confused because Schneider doesn’t sound too much like a Kazakh name. Your family is from there, though. How did that happen?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: It’s a long story, but 200 years ago, there was an emigration of Germans to the Russian Empire, and they made some settlements and villages completely German. My ancestors lived on the Black Sea shore near Odessa. There was another place of settlement, the Volga. So there were two groups of Germans in Russia, the so-called Volga Germans and the Black Sea Germans. I descend from the Black Sea Germans, and we kept our nationality, but especially we kept our Catholic faith through these 200 years. After the Second World War, Stalin deported all Germans who were living in Russia to different places for forced labor. My parents first came to the Ural Mountains, and then they went to Central Asia, where I was born.
Fr. Mitch Pacwa: Now, that’s why you are, though obviously German ethnically, born in Central Asia, and now you’re the Auxiliary Bishop of the Diocese of Astana in Kazakhstan. This gives you a great role, because bishops are not only local priests, they are bishops for the whole Church. Your writing about the Eucharist is certainly influenced by your experience in Kazakhstan and the sense of the sacred that you encounter there, which is not always present in the West. Tell us a little about how important that sense of what is sacred is, especially that episode with the mullah and the Quran.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, the Holy Eucharist, Christ, and specifically the Holy Communion, the sacred host, is not an idea, nor even merely a sacred thing, but a sacred person, a divine person, Jesus Christ our Lord, who is really and substantially present with all His divinity in this little sacred host. My concern is that we should be ever more aware and conscious when people approach to receive Holy Communion that here is the Lord of the universe, God in His unending majesty, who humiliated Himself so much. He not only became incarnate to assume our human nature, but He went even further, humbling Himself to the state of being in the Eucharist, defenseless and delivered into our hands. We can do with Him what we want.
I think that, especially the moment of Holy Communion, is the most intimate possible encounter with the Lord on this earth, with our incarnate God. This moment has to be sacred, solemn, and treated with great attention. Unfortunately, when I came to the Western world from the experience of the underground Church of my family and mother, it was a great shock and sadness to see how the moment of Holy Communion had become so superficial and banal, especially with the practice of receiving Communion in the hand, touching the sacred host with the fingers, and placing it into one’s own mouth. The consequences of this are serious and undeniable.
Firstly, there is the loss of the small fragments of the host. This loss is significant because in every fragment, the whole divinity of our Lord is present.
Fr. Mitch Pacwa: That’s an important thing to focus on. Sometimes people think that if a fragment breaks off from the host, it’s not really the Eucharist anymore.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: It is the Eucharist, because it is a dogma of our faith from the Council of Trent that in even the smallest fragment of the host, the whole Christ is present. Therefore, we must behave according to this dogma. In the manner of receiving Communion in the hand, we expose our Lord to a great loss of fragments. They can remain on the palm or fingers, and since there is no plate between the priest and communicant, they may fall to the ground. In our country, we do not have Communion in the hand, thanks be to God. We always use a paten, and after every Mass I find fragments on the paten. When there is no paten, as with Communion in the hand, our Lord falls and is crushed underfoot in His churches. This cannot be. We cannot remain silent and say it is acceptable just because it is licit. This is the first very grave consequence.
Fr. Mitch Pacwa: If I might add, I once met a priest who had been in a Communist Chinese prison. Hosts had been smuggled into him. He was given wine and bread by his mother, and he would consecrate them, breaking off the tiniest fragments so each priest could receive even a fragment of Holy Communion. It took years to obtain that, and it was precious to them. They treated each fragment with reverence, risking their lives to do so.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: That is a very impressive example. This was the first grave consequence. The second is the increase in stolen hosts in many countries. We expose our Lord to this danger. The third consequence is the minimalism in gestures of adoration. The holiest of the holy deserves the maximum reverence, not the minimum. Receiving the host in the hand and placing it in one’s own mouth resembles taking common food. There is an absence of a clear sacred gesture. We must reflect seriously on this.
Fr. Mitch Pacwa: In fact, in the last few years, a man attended a Mass celebrated by Blessed John Paul, and after his beatification, he said, “I have that piece of bread they gave me,” and tried to sell it on eBay. He wasn’t trying to steal it; he thought of it as a souvenir. The Knights of Columbus paid him and asked eBay not to allow such sacred items to be sold.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: That is just one example among many. We must wake up and kneel down to adore our Lord. It is logical. In the Book of Revelation, the angels prostrate themselves before the Lamb. We have the Lamb of God in the host, yet we do not prostrate ourselves. Why not? The Magi came to Bethlehem and, as Scripture says, performed proskinesis, a gesture of adoration, kneeling and bowing their heads to the earth.
Fr. Mitch Pacwa: In fact, the Greek word proskuneo simply means “to worship.”
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, and why do we not do the same? The women at the tomb on Easter morning, when they met the risen Lord, fell down and kissed His feet. They adored Him with the gesture of proskinesis. Our fathers and grandparents did the same. In the Latin rite, for more than a thousand years, the faithful received Communion kneeling and on the tongue. Such a long-standing tradition, which honors the Lord, should not be abolished. We must seek the maximum adoration and reverence, not the minimum.
Fr. Mitch Pacwa: Some Western liturgists point out that in the Byzantine or Orthodox Church, people stand when they receive Communion. Is that correct?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, they stand, but their liturgy includes other gestures of adoration, such as prostrations, even touching their heads to the floor. In the Latin rite, we do not prostrate in that way, but we kneel. Kneeling is our form of proskinesis. Both rites express adoration according to their tradition.
Fr. Mitch Pacwa: In fact, the bishops in the United States have instructed that when someone comes up to Communion, they should make at least a slight bow or some sign of adoration. That wasn’t discussed much ten years ago, but it’s becoming more common now.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Thanks be to God, but a slight bow is minimal. Why do we do the minimum for the Lord? Our Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI, has given a clear example for almost five years now. When he distributes Communion, he gives it only to those who kneel and receive on the tongue. This is a practical magisterium, a clear sign from the Vicar of Christ on earth. Bishops should follow his example in their dioceses.
Fr. Mitch Pacwa: At this point, some bishops’ conferences, like in the United States, have obtained permission to allow Communion in the hand. It’s not done in disobedience; it’s permitted. But you’re saying we should call ourselves to a greater sense of worship and show signs of adoration when receiving Communion?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes. Almost all bishops’ conferences in the world have asked for this permission. It is sad. The issue is not legality but reverence. The Lord’s honor is at stake. Even if it is licit, it objectively damages reverence and faith. I speak to help the faithful, and my brother bishops reflect on this. The Pope has already given an example, so why not follow it? We need an open discussion in the Church about this issue, without taboos. In the history of the Church, some practices were once permitted but were later understood to be harmful.
Fr. Mitch Pacwa: On reflection, they were permitted at a certain time, but later reflection showed that this was not accomplishing what was intended. It had some secondary effects that were not fitting with the faith.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, and so I think it is time for the whole Church to reflect. When we truly believe who the Lord is, who is the sacred host, I say who, not what, because the sacred host is a person. When we truly grasp this reality, I cannot imagine that we would remain content with Communion in the hand and standing. It is impossible.
Fr. Mitch Pacwa: Two things also strike me. It became very common for people to speak about receiving the bread and wine, without focusing on the fact that, by our faith, it is not bread or wine. It is the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ. The change in substance is real, effected by the Holy Spirit coming over the bread and wine, and by the words of Christ spoken by the priest in the person of Christ. This transformation is real. People are beginning to correct themselves. It had become a habit to talk about bread and wine, but now even priests and deacons are focusing again on the Body and Blood of Christ. This is part of a transition, a return to the true meaning.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Because what we believe and how we worship are connected. In the measure that I believe, I behave accordingly. And on the other side, when I perform certain gestures continuously, this affects my interior life and thinking. When I continuously receive the holiest of the holy as if it were common food, with the gesture of Communion in the hand, this affects my perception. I begin to think of it as common food, and people begin to speak of holy bread. Therefore, when we improve the gestures of adoration and sacredness during Holy Communion, it will strengthen our faith.
Fr. Mitch Pacwa: Again, something I mentioned at the beginning, you observed how Muslim clerics are considered blasphemers. Tell the story about the minister.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: I once attended an interreligious meeting with representatives of different confessions and religions. We spoke about what is considered sacred in each faith. The Muslim representative said, for us, the holiest of the holy is the Quran. He told of an instance when a Protestant pastor wanted to greet him and picked up the Quran without washing his hands. For this imam, it was a blasphemy. He was hurt and said publicly, “This is a blasphemy for us Muslims, because to touch the Quran in Arabic, you must first wash your hands, for it is the holiest of the holy.”
Fr. Mitch Pacwa: Right. If it’s a translation into English or another language, they don’t feel that way, but if it’s in Arabic.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, in Arabic, it is the holiest of the holy. I thought about this. We have the holiest of the holy, the Lord Himself, in the sacred host. If that imam entered a Catholic church in the Western world, where Communion in the hand is common, and saw people quickly taking the host with their fingers, he might ask a Catholic, “What is this little white bread?” and the Catholic would say, “This is our God.” He might ask, “Symbolically?” and the Catholic would answer, “No, really and substantially. Christ is present in His body, blood, and divinity.” The Muslim would then say, “I cannot believe that you truly believe this, because of the way you treat your God, the holiest of the holy.”
We have much to learn from the reverence of others, especially the Orthodox. I have an Orthodox friend, a very pious woman. In the Orthodox Church, after the Divine Liturgy, they distribute holy bread, which is blessed but not consecrated. It is called antidoron. They take it in the hand because it is not the Body of Christ. She once dropped a small fragment of this blessed bread and wept. Though she knew it was not the Body of Christ, her reverence was so deep that she cried. Another time, she took some of this bread home wrapped in paper. After consuming it, she called me and asked what to do with the paper because it had touched the holy bread. She said, “I cannot throw it in the garbage. I will burn it out of reverence.” This was her attitude toward only blessed bread, not the Body of Christ. What would this pious lady say if she observed how we treat our Lord in Communion in the hand?
Fr. Mitch Pacwa: You’ve given us much to consider. We’ll think about that and take some phone calls and questions. Please stay with us.
Welcome back. First of all, we want to invite you to come down here and be part of our studio audience. If you can make a pilgrimage, please contact our pilgrimage department at 205-271-2966.
You can also go to our website, www.ewtn.com, for information about program schedules, visits, Mass times, and tours of the studios. There is also information about driving to Hanceville to visit the sisters at the Shrine of the Most Blessed Sacrament. It’s a beautiful experience. Excellency, you were able to go to Hanceville to celebrate Mass this morning, correct? It’s very pretty up there, isn’t it? A beautiful church. Are you ready for some questions? Let’s start with a caller. Hello.
Caller: I’m calling from New York. Happy New Year to you, Father Pacwa, Bishop Schneider, and all your viewers.
Fr. Mitch Pacwa: Thank you. Your question?
Caller: I was wondering, Bishop Schneider, if you could give information on how a lady should prepare to receive Holy Communion. Also, why do people in your diocese receive Communion on the tongue and kneeling, and why is it not made mandatory here in America by the bishops and cardinals? If the Holy Father has been doing this for years, why not make it mandatory? Maybe you could stop in New York and mention it to Cardinal Dolan. I kneel when I receive Communion, and some elderly people tell me they would love to kneel but can’t because there are no kneelers. I’ll hang up and wait for your answer.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, it’s a good question. I already explained that this habit did not arise to increase devotion or adoration, but to reduce the signs of adoration. We must acknowledge this crisis honestly. A hundred years from now, people will look back and say this was a problem in the Church and ask why we were silent. The Holy Father already gives an example, and I know some bishops who have followed him by introducing kneeling and receiving on the tongue in their dioceses. In Kazakhstan, thanks be to God, we never had Communion in the hand or standing. We kept the traditions of our fathers and grandfathers, clear signs of devotion. Why reduce them? There is no reason. I hope bishops will reflect and imitate the Holy Father. I also hope the Holy See will publish a document inviting all bishops to follow his example.
Fr. Mitch Pacwa: Yes, certainly, when I’m in the Holy Land, the Chancellor of the Diocese of Jerusalem makes it clear that there’s no permission to receive in the hand there. I insist that all pilgrims receive on the tongue, as is required by that diocese. Very good. We have a question from our studio audience. Ma’am, where are you from?
Caller: I’m from Birmingham. Father, when I was growing up in the 1950s, we were taught never to touch the sacred host with our teeth, to let it rest on the tongue. I was away from the Church for 28 years, and when I came back, people were receiving in the hand. When did that change, and why?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: This change came from the Netherlands during the Second Vatican Council. They introduced it without permission, and it spread across northern Europe, Belgium, Germany, France, and Austria, like a cancer. Pope Paul VI forbade it in 1967, but bishops from those countries continued to pressure him. The Pope asked all bishops of the world for their opinion, and the vast majority rejected Communion in the hand because of the danger of losing fragments and weakening faith and devotion. Despite this, in 1969, the Pope reluctantly gave permission to those countries. This is documented and can be read in published records.
Fr. Mitch Pacwa: I remember when it was first introduced illicitly. The reasoning was that we are adults, not children, and should receive as adults who feed themselves.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, but our Lord Jesus Christ said, “Unless you become like little children, you will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven.” He did not say, “Unless you become adults.”
Fr. Mitch Pacwa: Let’s take another caller. Hello, Neil from New Jersey.
Caller: Thank you, Father. God bless you both. I’ve been told by some priests that they will not give me Communion if I kneel. One priest even singled me out publicly. He said he wants everyone to receive uniformly. How should I respond? I want to kneel out of reverence.
Fr. Mitch Pacwa: That’s a quandary. The priest is telling him he won’t give him Communion if he kneels.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Every Catholic has the right to receive Holy Communion kneeling. The Church has repeatedly affirmed this. No priest or bishop has the right to deny Communion to someone kneeling. A priest who does this commits an injustice.
Fr. Mitch Pacwa: It would be within Neil’s rights to write to the bishop. Pope Benedict explicitly stated that the faithful have the right to kneel. Once, in Dallas, a priest physically confronted a man for kneeling. Lawyers became involved because that behavior is completely unacceptable and contrary to canon law. The priest has no right to do that, and the faithful should go to the local bishop.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Of course.
Fr. Mitch Pacwa: We have another question from the audience. Ma’am, where are you from?
Caller: I’m from Spring, Texas.
Fr. Mitch Pacwa: I’ve been there. I understand you were just married last Saturday. Congratulations. Is your husband trainable?
Caller: Yes, he follows instructions rather well.
Fr. Mitch Pacwa: Good. What’s your question?
Caller: When Our Lord, on the first Holy Thursday, handed His body to each apostle, why would that not be reverent for us to receive in the hand?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Good question. First, it is not proven that Our Lord gave the consecrated bread in the hand.
Fr. Mitch Pacwa: The text is silent.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Secondly, those present were priests of the New Covenant. Lay people are not priests in that way. The Lord said, “Take and eat.” The Greek word lábete does not mean “touch with the hand,” but “receive.” The same word is used when Jesus says, “Receive the Holy Spirit.” We do not touch the Holy Spirit with our hands. Holy Communion is not about physically taking something; it is a deeply spiritual event of receiving love into the soul. So “receive” is the more accurate translation.
Fr. Mitch Pacwa: I think of the Aramaic word sabachul, which can also be translated as “receive.” In the Maronite liturgy, we use that same term.
Caller: Thank you. I’m from Fairfax, Virginia. I remember reading in an early Church document, possibly the Didache, that said to receive the Body of Christ in the hand like a throne. If that’s true, why can’t we receive it in the hand?
Fr. Mitch Pacwa: That wasn’t the Didache.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: No, that text is from St. Cyril of Jerusalem in the fourth century, not from the apostles. It is true that in the early centuries Communion was sometimes received in the hand, but the gesture was very different. The host was placed on the right palm, not the left, and the communicant bowed deeply, receiving it directly into the mouth without touching it with the fingers. Women covered their hands with a white cloth called the dominicale. Even then, the Church soon stopped this practice to prevent loss of fragments. It was a natural deepening of reverence that led to receiving on the tongue.
Fr. Mitch Pacwa: We have another caller. Hello, Mary Ann from Toms River, New Jersey.
Caller: I’m from the old school. Fifty years ago, we received at the altar rail. The altar boy held the plate. We fasted before Communion. It was done with reverence. Today, it feels rushed, and Eucharistic ministers, God bless them, are ordinary people touching the host, which was never allowed before.
Fr. Mitch Pacwa: We have a short minute. Bishop, your response?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: The lady is right. Even in the early centuries, when the host was placed on the palm, no one was permitted to touch it with the fingers. Only the priest did so, acting in persona Christi.
Fr. Mitch Pacwa: As Vatican II says frequently.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, and this modern manner of receiving Communion, with minimal devotion and adoration, does not come from Vatican II. On the contrary, it is against Vatican II.
Fr. Mitch Pacwa: Right, and we certainly urge people to read the Constitution on the Liturgy from Vatican II, Sacrosanctum Concilium. Unfortunately, we’ve run out of time. Thank you for coming all the way from Kazakhstan. Would you join me in blessing the audience? May God bless you, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen.
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