Brian McCall: Welcome to another special report from Catholic Family News. I am Brian McCall, the editor in chief. I am very delighted to bring you a special program today. We are going to speak with His Excellency Bishop Athanasius Schneider, who is an Auxiliary Bishop of the Diocese of Astana Kazakhstan. He is also a member of the canons regular of the Holy Cross of Coimbra. Our viewers who read our monthly newspaper will certainly be familiar with His Excellency, as we have reviewed several of his previous books, reprinted some of his declarations and articles, and conducted some written interviews. So welcome and thank you for joining us Your Excellency. We have two books that we are going to discuss today that you have published most recently. I am really amazed by how busy your life must be as a bishop that you have had time for these projects. The first is The Springtime That Never Came, which is published in a book length interview. You published several years ago another excellent book that we recommend to our readers, Christus Vincit. So, could you start by explaining to our readers why you wanted to publish another book-length interview at this time?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: It was not my idea to publish the second book, as it was not my idea to publish the first book, so I simply accepted the requests. In this case, in the second book, it was the request of the journalist Pavel Lischenski from Poland. After he read my first book, Christus Vincit, he approached me and asked me to do with him a book-length interview in order to deepen some topics of the first book or to add some new aspects to discuss. So I agreed to his request and did this second book-length interview.
Brian McCall: As we said, the title is The Springtime That Never Came, and many in the church hoped in the mid twentieth century to bring about a renewal, a new springtime, a new vitality in the church, which, as you argue in the book, has not come. Do you think that this situation was inevitable, that it was not possible at that time to bring a new springtime, or could that goal have been achieved?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: It was, we cannot say that it was inevitable or not possible. It is always possible, because the renewal of the church, a kind of spiritual springtime, is always possible since the Holy Spirit is the soul of the church and the church is the Mystical Body of Christ. God, in His mercy, is always ready to pour out special graces of spiritual renewal. Therefore, it was possible that in the time of the Second Vatican Council, it could have been done. Unfortunately, those responsible in the church, the popes and the bishops, did not recognize the true signs of the time. Our Lord said in the Gospel that you have not recognized the signs, and they did not recognize the signs. John the twenty-third lived in a kind of unrealistic world. He considered his time and the Western society, which was already in the fifties and sixties, a materialistic society banishing Christ from its presence.
This society of secularism, materialism, naturalism, and immorality had already been growing ever more since the end of the First World War. Even public morality was decreasing. These were the signs of the time, and John the twenty-third did not recognize them. They had to stress that this is the danger and that the answer of the church in a time of increasing immorality and materialism, which was the time of the twentieth century and was already infiltrating the Catholic Church, should have been clear. Modernism in the fifties, the relaxation of observance and penance, and the weakening of ascetic life in the monasteries were already appearing, not so much but already present. John the twenty-third did not recognize these signs, and he presented the situation in a completely unrealistic, optimistic way.
The contrary should have been done. It should have been proclaimed a new time of a more serious and deeper way of Catholic life on all levels, a new time of penance. Without penance, without repentance, without more prayer, there can never be a springtime of the church. This is what our Lord did when He came. He proclaimed penance, repentance, prayer, and separation from the worldly spirit. Do not love the world and what is in the world, as our Lord said and as the apostles said. This should have been clearly done. I think that if in the sixties Pope John the twenty-third had had a true, realistic vision with the eyes of Christ, the apostles, and all the great popes, such as Pope Gregory the Great and Pope Pius the Fifth, then a true time of springtime and renewal of the church could have been brought about in our time. We hope that this will still be given and granted to the church after this deep crisis.
Brian McCall: And you do much in the book to lay out the parts of that crisis, the issues that affect the church today. We obviously cannot talk about all of them in this time, but if you had to, is there a way to identify one, or is there one problem or error in the church that is at the root of all of them? Or is it not possible to identify the most important problem?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, there is a problem at the root of all in the world and in the church. This is the anthropocentrism, that we are centers on ourselves, on man. This is the deepest problem in the church: the concentration on the temporal and the material, and forgetting eternity and banishing Christ to the corner at the periphery, and grace and eternity. This is the deepest root where we can see the problem.
Brian McCall: It is interesting that you mention that, because that helps us bring up the second book that you have published recently on the Catholic Mass, which has as its subtitle steps to restore the centrality of God in the liturgy. It would seem that you agree that this is the root of the problem with the liturgy as well, that the liturgy has become man-centered or anthropocentric as opposed to God centered. Is that fair?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Exactly, yes. The central problem of anthropocentrism or naturalism, naturalism could be another aspect of this problem, abandoning the supernatural vision and the supernatural aspiration. This is manifested in a special manner in the liturgy, in the way the worship and the liturgy are celebrated. Therefore, they are connected. We have to restore the centrality of God again in all aspects of the liturgy, and then we will be healed. Then we will be at the right place when we put God at the center and Christ in the liturgy and eternity. Then we will be at the right place, and our earthly life will also be in the right place. So we have to start very seriously. The church, the popes, and the bishops need to restore the centrality of God in the liturgy. The situation in the liturgy today is applicable to what the prophets in the Old Testament repeated as God addressed His people, You have abandoned me, the fountain of water, and dug other places where there is no water. This is the modern liturgy. There is no water, no more life of truth, no more supernatural life. There is more humanistic action. We can apply these words of the prophets, You have abandoned me, the water of life.
Brian McCall: And therefore, one of the topics you talk about in the first book, The Springtime That Never Came, is an incorrect understanding of ecumenism or an incorrect understanding of the relations that the Catholic Church should have or the way it should speak about all untrue religions or false religions. Is that also related to the liturgy? If there is a loss of the sense of God’s centrality to the church, is that connected to a loss in belief that the Catholic Church is the true Church founded by Christ and that we should call everyone to come back to it.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: It could be, but on the other side, even though the other religions are not true, of course they are false because God does not want the existence of other religions, I think that even we in the Catholic Church, in those places where the Novus Ordo is celebrated or where there are abuses of the liturgy, can learn something from the other religions, the God centrality and the feeling of reverence and awe and sacredness. Let us look at the Muslims, how they pray in the mosque, all centered in one direction to the place that indicates the direction to Mecca. They would never pray in another way in an anthropocentric way.
Only in this aspect, for example, and the reverence, they use the Arabic language, a sacred language. These could be elements to recall us and remind us of what we had. We had the traditional liturgy since ever, the liturgy of all ages, which demonstrated that we had the theocentric and Christocentric liturgy at a most high and exemplary level. In this way, we can learn something from the wrong religions in this aspect, only in this aspect. This is not because of their wrong religion, but because these aspects I mentioned are not due to their wrong religion, but due to common human values which God gave to human reason, to the natural law of religion. The supernatural must raise up these values and direct them to Christ and to the Holy Trinity.
Brian McCall: That is a very interesting observation. I think you are right that we, on the natural level, can certainly see that turning toward God by all, as opposed to turning toward ourselves. But as you bring up that issue of praying toward the east, toward where Christ will return, or ad orientum in Latin, there are those in the church who have for many years and still continue to argue that the changes to the liturgy, many of them or most of them, were to bring us back to the early church, to restore the way the Mass was in the ancient times. Our viewers may know that you are a great scholar of the patristic period of the early church. So what would you say to that claim that the new form of Mass was just going back to the earliest Christian centuries?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: This is simply not true. This is simply not true. This is a myth, because we have many witnesses from the church fathers from the first centuries and all the archaeological witnesses that never, never did the church in the first centuries celebrate Mass in such a way toward the people. It was an apostolic rule. Even St Basil in the fourth century stressed this, that we pray all looking in the same direction, says Basil, to the east. This is a rule of the apostles. We are keeping the apostolic way of prayer, and the apostles prayed the same because it was the same style in the Temple of Jerusalem and in the synagogues. They prayed there in the same way. Only on very few occasions, because of geological reasons, as in Rome in the Basilica of St Peter, since it could not be built in another direction, Mass was celebrated there in some way toward the nave.
But the reason was not to celebrate toward the people but toward the east, because the door of the Basilica of St Peter is at the east and the apse is on the west. This was the deeper reason. Even in the Basilica of St Peter in the first millennium, although the celebrant looked toward the people, there were curtains at the altar. The curtains hid the celebrant during the consecration, the most sacred and mysterious part of the Mass. The priest was hidden, as today in the Byzantine rites, the curtain is still used in this moment. This was also the case in Rome in the Basilica of St Peter and in the papal basilicas. Later, when there was no more curtain, they put up a large crucifix with candlesticks, so it was a kind of barrier, and you could not see the celebrant. This was very evident. It was never the intention to celebrate with the people. We have to return to this. If they want to return to the first centuries, they have to return to celebration ad orientum and also to use all the severe laws of fasting. Please return to this if you want the first century, then you have to observe the very strong fasting laws and the celebration ad orientum, and so on.
Therefore, it is another error of this position, the so-called error or liturgical heresy of the liturgical archaeologists, which was condemned by Pope Pius the twelfth. It is heretical because we cannot simply return to some form of expression of faith or of liturgy from the first centuries. The church was growing and guided by the Holy Spirit like a living body in an organic way. In the first centuries, the truth of the Immaculate Conception was not yet expressed, nor was the practice of the Holy Rosary in the second or third century, nor the practice of exposition of the Blessed Sacrament for solemn adoration, which came only in the twelfth century. If we now return, it is against Catholic doctrine to simply return to alleged forms of the first centuries. The church is growing. Our Lord said, I will send you the Holy Spirit who will introduce you to the fullness of truth, because now you cannot bear it yet. The Holy Spirit is deepening the truth, making it clearer, more beautiful, more sacred, not less explicit but more explicit. This is the rule of Catholicism. All the heretics almost always wanted to return to a presumably ideal time in the first centuries. We have to return only to those elements in the first centuries that are always valid. This is the zeal for prayer, the zeal for penance, and living a very deep spiritual life.
Brian McCall: Yes. You mentioned the fasting, but I also would say, do people want to go back to the penances of the second century? If you read some of the public penances that were imposed, it certainly was not a decade of the rosary. But we do not hear that. In the book, for our readers, I recommend it. I actually read it during Lent as spiritual reading in Lent, and it is really like a beautiful series of conferences or a retreat on the Mass, looking at different aspects of the Mass. For example, Mass as adoration, as sacrifice, as thanksgiving, and each chapter is a different meditation on that aspect of the Mass. Of those, I have the sense from reading the book that you would say that many of those aspects have been downplayed or ignored or shrouded or hidden in the new Mass or the Novus Ordo. Would you say that the element of sacrifice is the one that has disappeared? Would you agree with that?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, I think that the sacrificial aspect of the Holy Mass was by the Novus Ordo very much diminished. This is the most serious problem with the Novus Ordo, especially because this is the essence of the Holy Mass, the sacrifice of Christ celebrated at the altar sacramentally, the Golgotha sacrifice. This is what is central, what is essential. When you diminish something that is essential and substantial, you are attacking the same reality. This is the most detrimental. It harms our faith, and what is the core, the heart of our faith, the holy sacrifice of Christ celebrated upon the altars. It was diminished in the sacrificial aspect with the new offertory prayers, which are completely strange and alien to the Catholic tradition. They are a kind of banquet prayer.
Jews and Protestants like the Novus Ordo offertory prayers because they are closer to the Protestant understanding of the Eucharist as a meal or only as a symbolical sacrifice, but not a real sacramental sacrifice. This is a very serious aspect, the new offertory prayers, and also the use of the second Eucharistic Prayer, which is so weak in really expressing the sacrificial truth. This second Eucharistic Prayer is overwhelmingly used by the clergy in the Catholic Church almost everywhere and almost always. This is a very great danger, I consider. And then, of course, also the practice of celebrating the Holy Mass with the people, like in a closed circle around the table. Even though the Novus Ordo does not require celebrating toward the people, you can celebrate the Novus Ordo toward the east. Nevertheless, in practice, it is almost everywhere, and we have to stress this and start to correct this. It is urgent to return to the sacrificial aspect and the sacredness.
Brian McCall: And for our viewers who are interested in that topic, as you may know, we at Catholic Family News have a little series on the Mass explained and compared, where we have been going through the Mass one part at a time. So there is an episode on the offertory prayers that His Excellency referred to that you can listen to or watch if you would like a little more detail on the meaning of the traditional prayers. So perhaps you can share with us on that note, when in your life as a priest and as a bishop did you first come to celebrate the traditional Mass yourself as a priest?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: I celebrated the traditional Mass already as a priest occasionally, but in a systematic way I started when Pope Benedict sixteen in 2007 allowed that this Mass can be celebrated without restrictions everywhere. So I used this possibility, and on every occasion when I do not have public Masses in the Novus Ordo in my diocese, I celebrate privately, always the traditional form of the Holy Mass. My first feeling when I celebrated the traditional form of the Mass was, after the Mass, that I am only a servant, a servant. Because I had to obey every little prescription of the Mass. I had no freedom to move where I wanted or stand where I wanted, and every step, every gesture, was prescribed. I had to obey simply. I felt that this is so beneficial for a priest to have this feeling of servant. You serve really. It is not you, it is not your possession, it is not your property, the Holy Mass, not even for one moment. This is so beautiful in the traditional form of the Mass, these precise rubrics. They instill in you the spirit of servant. Jesus Christ said, I am among you as one who serves. This is our Lord, and this should be the aim and the example for every priest and for every liturgical celebration.
Brian McCall: That is very beautiful. I have heard other priests speak about how the traditional Mass has affected them, but that is a unique aspect; it helped you understand your role as a servant in the Mass. That is very beautiful. One point in the book, and several times in The Catholic Mass Restoring the Centrality of God, you argue that things should be changed in the new Mass to bring it closer to the traditional Mass or to restore things to it. If that is the case, and that would be a way forward, as you suggest, why would it not be simply to go back to the traditional Mass across the church everywhere? If it is moving toward it, does that not suggest that maybe, why move one step or a few steps if not going the whole way? I do not know if you have thoughts on that.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: The church is a living body, and we have to take account of this reality. Bishops and people and priests who are already since two generations accustomed to this form of the Novus Ordo are not like pieces that we can simply move. They are living persons. We have to take account of this. A big ship cannot be turned suddenly to another direction. It is a simple demand of common sense. So we have to go slowly, step by step, the Novus Ordo approaching the traditional form step by step. The first step would already be, even without changing anything, for the entire church in the Novus Ordo to make it compulsory to celebrate the Holy Mass toward the Lord, toward the east, toward the crucifix and tabernacle. This would already be a great step, which would make the two forms visibly closer from the outside, and it would change the interior attitude of the celebrants very much, even if they continue to celebrate the Novus Ordo.
The second very important and indispensable requirement would be that in all the churches of the Catholic Church, the Holy Communion should be compulsory to receive on the tongue with a paten so that nothing will fall down, and kneeling, of course. These two aspects would be the first necessary steps. After some years, when this is already a practice in the Novus Ordo churches all over the world, then the other elements would be easier to introduce, because by then the spirit of sacredness will already have been spread through celebration ad orientum and through the reception of Holy Communion kneeling and on the tongue.
Brian McCall: Well, thank you for that, Your Excellency. As we are perhaps nearing the end of our time together, I have always been impressed with your writing when you clearly address difficult issues. We live in a world and a church that has many problems today. You always bring a note of hope and optimism. So do you have any parting words to our viewers who are maybe distraught over the crisis in the world, the things going on for the past two years, and the difficulties in the church, for them to be hopeful about the future and not be too distraught?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, we always have to have the supernatural view. Because we are Christians, we have this. We have to renew the supernatural view. When God permitted this extraordinary crisis within the church, it was a permission of God, and God knows how to draw from this situation a greater good. He will do this. We also have to look at this in the light of divine providence, that God put me personally in this difficult time. In the eternal providence of God, this has a sense, a meaning for me. What does this do for me personally? It is to strengthen my faith that I will nevertheless strengthen my fidelity and my hope.
This is a moment to exercise more strongly my supernatural hope that the church is indestructible, my supernatural hope that Christ has the rudder of the church in his hands, not the pope ultimately, or the bishops, but Christ, and that he will renew the church. I can start to confess my faith. Even if my bishop is denying Christ, I will confess him. I will be faithful to the faith of all ages, to the Holy Mass of all ages, of my ancestors, of the saints. Even if the pope is speaking not clearly or ambiguously, I will continue to speak clearly in my place. I will continue to pray for my bishop and for the pope, that God may illuminate them and change their heart and minds. Therefore, you see, this difficult situation is an occasion for me to exercise more meritoriously the virtues, the Christian life, and the supernatural vision.
Brian McCall: Well, thank you. That was very beautiful, Your Excellency. Again, I would remind our viewers, both books are available from Sophia Institute Press. They have been publishing some wonderful books in the past few years, including His Excellency’s. The Springtime That Never Came, the book-length interview, is the first. The second is The Catholic Mass Restoring the Centrality of God in the Liturgy. With inflation the way it is today, it is only about twenty-one or twenty-two dollars. It is wonderful to spend that money now. Buy them now; it will be an investment in beautiful spiritual reading that will edify you. If I could ask Your Excellency to remember Catholic Family News and us in your prayers, in particular this week, my oldest son, who is going to be ordained a few days after this interview, to the priesthood. He actually met you briefly when you visited his seminary for Pope Benedict several years ago. If you could please remember him this week and all of us. On behalf of all our viewers, thank you for all you have done for Catholics around the world in the past many years.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, I will remember your son, that he will become a true and faithful Catholic priest, and that his priesthood will bear many spiritual apostolic fruits. I will give a blessing to you and to your listeners, to your family.
Dominus vobiscum, et cum, spiritu tuo. Et benedictio dei omnipotentis, Patris et Filii et spiritus Santi descendant, super vos et maneat semper. Amen
Brian McCall: Thank you Your Excellency. Thank you for watching.