Bishop Schneider: Christ is, let us say, the real Pope, the head of the Church, invisible, but he is using and guiding the Church infallibly, even with a defective instrument, or his vicar, in this case, the Pope.
John-Henry Westen: Hello, my friends, and welcome to Rome. We are here to cover the end of the Synod and also the Rome Life Forum, which is the LifeSite conference that has been held here in Rome since 2014, so for most of this pontificate. We are here today, very much graced by the presence of Bishop Athanasius Schneider, as you know, from Astana in Kazakhstan.
He has released his new book, his new catechism, called Credo, a wonderful catechism which answers many of the modern questions we have in the Church. I was speaking with Alexander Chuguev the other day, and he mentioned how it is a great manual for apologetics, in addition to teaching our children and everything else. For all of you wondering how to answer the tough questions on all of the issues we face today, especially the more difficult ones, the answers are right there, very clear, concise, and beautiful.
We are also here to talk with Bishop Schneider about the current controversy during the Synod. We did not hear that much, as there was a block in communications. From the outset of the Synod, we had the responses to the Dubia from the five cardinals, and that was very difficult because it seemed to indicate that priests could decide for themselves whether or not they wanted to give a blessing to same sex unions, couples in same sex unions, which is very dangerous. This was said not to be marriage and not to lead to confusion about marriage, but rather same sex civil unions.
We have heard that the same thing happened in many governments. Before they introduced same sex marriage, they introduced same sex civil unions. Of course, it eventually led to marriage, but while introducing same sex unions, they all insisted it had nothing to do with marriage, and even claimed it was meant to prevent same sex marriage. So there is utter confusion.
We are going to talk to His Excellency about that as well. This has raised questions about the papacy of Pope Francis itself, because how can it be that we have erroneous teaching coming from the Pope himself, all this and more on this episode of the John Henry Westen Show. Stay tuned.
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Your Excellency, thank you so much for joining us on the program.
Bishop Schneider: You are welcome.
John-Henry Westen: Let us begin, as we always do, with the Sign of the Cross, if you would lead us, please.
Bishop Schneider: In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.
John-Henry Westen: Amen. So, Your Excellency, there has been a flurry of activity. It has been beautiful here. We are also in the midst of the Summorum Pontificum pilgrimage, a traditional Mass pilgrimage here in Rome. You have been very busy, so I want to thank you for your time, because I know you have been very stretched.
Let us start with your book, the catechism Credo. I know you explained that it was brought about by the demands of the faithful. You explained, I believe, with a reference to someone knocking at the udder asking for milk. Perhaps you can tell us some good ways the faithful can knock at the udders of the Church to receive from their bishops and pastors the milk of truth.
Bishop Schneider: Yes, it was an expression of Saint Caesarius of Arles from the fifth century, which even Pope Francis once quoted, saying that the faithful have a right to doctrine and to spiritual nourishment. If the bishops are not giving it to them, they must go to them like the calf knocking on the udder of the mother cow to ask for milk.
So the faithful must continue to ask the Pope and the bishops to give them true milk, not fake milk or fake nourishment, but true nourishment, which is the Word of God, the revelation of God, the doctrine of Christ, which was entrusted to the Apostles and their successors, the bishops and the Pope, the Magisterium, only to keep it carefully, transmit it faithfully, and explain it in the same meaning and sense that the Church has always taught.
This is very important in this time of confusion, when, unfortunately, we hear so much confusion in doctrine. Therefore, it is the hour of the faithful to demand pure Catholic doctrine as spiritual nourishment.
John-Henry Westen: And what were the particular ways that worked for you in the arduous task of making this catechism? Do you have any suggestions for particular methods that could be used to encourage bishops and pastors to provide this milk?
Bishop Schneider: The people, the faithful, in the places where they live, must address their pastors and then their bishops and present their request to them. They can show them that we already have texts proven by the history of the Church, such as the traditional catechisms, for example, the Baltimore Catechism, and ask the bishop, please give us such clear teaching again, as our forefathers received it.
Our forefathers, our grandfathers, until the Council, all generations of Catholics, had the happiness of receiving a pure, integral, and sure Catholic doctrine. This is what they should say. They should ask for this.
The faithful can also organize meetings themselves for spreading traditional Catholic doctrine. Today we have many means, including the internet, but also gathering together in person to meet, to hold conferences about true Catholic doctrine, and to transmit it to the youth.
John-Henry Westen: In his answer to the Dubia of the cardinals, the new Dubia cardinals who asked specifically about the blessing of homosexual unions, because the German bishops voted thirty-eight to eight in favor of it, the answer, as you mentioned in the press conference for the release of Credo, seemed to be an act of confusion, almost an intentional confusion.
He spoke of an openness to allowing it, not marriage, but unions only. So he was saying that it would not cause confusion about marriage. For activists like myself and those who have worked around the world to defend traditional marriage, that sounded very familiar, because we heard the same thing from politicians. Not marriage, only unions, so that marriage would not be affected. Why is this approach not possible in the Church, to give blessings for homosexual unions?
Bishop Schneider: It is, in fact, simply a play with words, a deceit in a cunning way, because we are not little children who do not understand this. It is evident that the fact that there is a couple, two persons of the same sex, is already a message, a demonstration, and a propagation of the sin of homosexuality, a sin against nature.
Otherwise, they would not join. They are joined because of same sex erotic attraction, and this is against nature, against reason. It sends a message that we can live in this way and exercise sexuality in this way, which is contrary to the creation of God and to the will of God.
Since it is against the creation of God, against the wisdom of God, and against the will of God, it is extremely harmful to the people themselves, to the couple, because what is against nature and against the will of God is deeply harmful.
Therefore, when people say it is only a blessing, we must ask what exactly we are blessing. Even when they do not say we are a marriage, they are saying we are a couple attracted by same sex erotic attraction, and so we are blessing same sex eroticism. We must name things by their proper name.
To bless this is to bless sin, or at least the near occasion of sin. Some will say that they will live in chastity, but this is completely naive and unrealistic. If they were living chastely, why would they ask for a blessing as a couple and not as a single person?
A single person with same sex attraction can come and ask for a blessing to overcome temptations and, with the grace of God, to live chastely, but as a single person. He would not come with a partner, because that would be a contradiction to living according to the will of God.
So we see that all of this is a very cunning and deceitful method. The Church can never cooperate in any way with supporting so called same sex unions or couples, and such blessings are in themselves a real abomination.
John-Henry Westen: It is a stunning word to use, because we are dealing with times that are unbelievably confusing. It is coming from what you might call the holy place, because in Scripture, in Revelation, we read about the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place. That is when you know the time has come.
We are in a very strange situation, because even at this Synod, which seemed to begin with the response to the Dubia, there was also what could be described as a kind of Synod conducted by Pope Francis himself. He met with Whoopi Goldberg, and that meeting went around the world. Whoopi Goldberg met with him and praised him for his promotion of homosexuality, and notably, this was broadcast by Vatican News Service.
In addition, he met with Sister Jeannine Gramick, whom you likely know was sanctioned under Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict for her work against the faith regarding homosexuality. There was also Father James Martin, who was named to the Synod, and the Pope met with leaders of various so-called Catholic groups that promote the LGBT agenda inside the Church.
All of this took place during this month of the Synod. So there is grave confusion, and together with this confusion, along with Amoris Laetitia before it, and the answer explaining what Amoris Laetitia was supposed to mean, given in the Acta Apostolicae Sedis, which was a heretical interpretation but nonetheless said to be authentic Magisterium, and other examples that you could give, which I know you know better than I do, this has led people to question the papacy of Pope Francis. What is your approach to these questions?
Bishop Schneider: First of all, it is a very sad phenomenon, even a tragedy, all these actions of Pope Francis that you mentioned recently. Basically, he is using the papacy, such a sacred mission, the most sacred mission in the Church of Peter, and in this case, abusing it to support the worldwide LGBT agenda and gender ideology.
Even though he affirms that the doctrine of the Church will not change, and even though he has said several times that we must not accept gender ideology, de facto, he supports it by his actions and by his praxis. This is a typical method of modernism, already present in the Church more than one hundred years ago, and especially after the Council, where they say let us separate doctrine from praxis, that doctrine remains one thing while praxis can be different.
This is contrary to Revelation and contrary to logic and common sense. It comes from the dialectic of modern unbelieving philosophy, such as Hegel and Marx, which stresses praxis and minimizes doctrine. In this way, Pope Francis continues to give very confusing signs. By his actions, he undermines and contradicts his own words and the teaching of the Church.
This is very sad, but God has permitted it. It is not in our power to change this. We must see this pontificate in a supernatural light, because the Church is not a human institution. We are not an NGO or a political party where one can depose a leader. The Pope receives his power directly from God, not from the cardinals and not from the Church, but directly from God. This is Catholic doctrine.
Therefore, no body of the Church, no cardinals and no council, can declare the Pope deposed because of moral or doctrinal crimes, even in the case of supporting heresy. One thing must be stressed clearly. It is a dogma of faith, which every Catholic must believe with divine faith, that the Pope is preserved from error only when he proclaims doctrine ex cathedra.
Ex cathedra means a definitive teaching that he explicitly presents as such and imposes as obligatory on the entire Church. If these conditions are not fulfilled, the Pope does not have the divine assistance of infallibility and is not preserved from error. This is basic Catholic teaching, found in the old catechisms, and we must remind people of this.
In recent decades, and even centuries, there has been an implicit absolute infallibilization of the Pope, meaning that every word and every statement is assumed to be infallible. De facto, many people believe this, but this is not Catholic doctrine. We must return to sober theological thinking.
According to the logic of dogma, all words, statements, and documents that the Pope does not present as infallible teaching are theoretically capable of error. This is a logical consequence. Thanks be to God, in almost all cases over two thousand years, divine providence assisted the Popes so that even in their ordinary Magisterium, which was not formally infallible, they were preserved from error.
However, this preservation outside ex cathedra definitions depends on the personal cooperation of the Pope with divine grace. It depends on how prayerful he is, how obedient he is to tradition, how much he consults good counsel, and how faithfully he adheres to the Church’s teaching. This affects whether he remains free from error even in his ordinary Magisterium.
Therefore, it is basic Catholic teaching that a Pope can commit errors and even heresies outside ex cathedra teaching. This has been demonstrated in history in very rare cases. The first well-known case is Pope Honorius I, who, in his official papal letters to the Patriarch of Constantinople, delivered ambiguous teaching on Christology. It was not formally heretical, but it was ambiguous.
After his death, he was condemned by three ecumenical councils. His successors clarified that he was not condemned as a formal heretic, but as one who helped to promote heresy. Nevertheless, several Popes, including saints, publicly condemned him posthumously.
Another case is Pope John XXII in the fourteenth century. In his ordinary preaching Magisterium, he repeatedly promoted material heresy by claiming that the beatific vision begins only after the Last Judgment. This contradicted Scripture and the entire tradition of the Church. Many were scandalized, but only one cardinal had the courage and frankness to resist him. The other cardinals accepted it because he was the Pope, as we often see today.
Thanks be to God, Pope John XXII repented before his death. Shortly before he died, he retracted his errors and asked pardon. After his death, the cardinals elected the same cardinal who had resisted him, who became Pope Benedict XII. He then proclaimed ex cathedra the truth of the beatific vision, that souls enjoy it immediately after purification and entrance into the presence of God.
So we see that these rare cases exist, and therefore we must know them.
And therefore, we can live with Pope Francis, who is spreading errors in doctrine outside extraordinary definitions. He never makes extraordinary decisions, because he has repeatedly said that he does not like anything definitive or precise. He prefers ambiguity in some way. God permits that he is not speaking definitively, and therefore we can live with Pope Francis, even though it is a tragedy for us all.
The other aspect is that we must say clearly that the Pope is not the Church. The Pope is not identical with the Church. The Pope is also a member of the Church. He is, of course, the visible head of the Church, but the invisible head of the Church is Christ. The Pope is the vicar.
Just as Christ is the main celebrant in every Holy Mass, not the priest, Christ is the one who truly consecrates. The priest is the necessary visible and living instrument. In the same way, this analogy applies to the papacy. Christ is, let us say, the real Pope, the invisible head of the Church, and he guides the Church infallibly, even when using a defective instrument, his vicar, in this case, the Pope. This is something we must believe.
The error many pious people make, even in the past, is that they exaggerate the papacy in such a way that when a Pope commits errors, they believe everything collapses, that the Church collapses. No, the Church will not collapse. The Church is stronger than an erring Pope or even a morally bad Pope. The Church can endure even a time when a Pope spreads errors or helps to spread heresies, or supports harmful ideologies, as we see today.
Pope Francis is not eternal. He will die, as we all will one day, and he will appear before the judgment of God. The Church is not in the hands of Pope Francis. First of all, the Church is not in our hands either. Therefore, we must not say that we will gather and create a solution to this problem ourselves. This is a purely human approach, something appropriate for an NGO, but we are not one.
We must not say that we will gather the cardinals and declare that he is a heretic and has therefore lost the papacy. This will not resolve the problem. It will only make it worse. History shows many cases where this led to two or three claimants to the papacy. We must not repeat this scenario.
This approach is too human. The Church is not in the hands of the cardinals, but in the almighty hands of Jesus Christ, and he will resolve this. This is a very grave trial of faith for all of us. We must endure it and accept this cross. This pontificate is one of the heaviest crosses that God can place on our shoulders.
At the same time, we must pray for Pope Francis that he may be enlightened and receive the grace that Pope John XXII received before his death, the grace to repent and to retract. This is our duty. Speaking with vulgar language against Pope Francis helps nothing. It is only an expression of human anger and frustration.
We must pray for him. Of course, we must admonish him, and I try to do this, but always respectfully. We must not act with vulgarity or anger. We must act with dignity, with a supernatural spirit, with clarity, but always respectfully. As Saint Paul teaches us, Veritatem facientes in caritate, do the truth in charity.
John-Henry Westen: Absolutely beautiful. I think it is especially beautiful what you said during the press conference, that you do this out of love, and that you have never loved or prayed for someone so much in your life as Pope Francis.
Bishop Schneider: Yes, exactly. I say this now. Never in my life have I prayed so much for anyone, or asked for prayers, or offered sacrifices, as I have for Pope Francis. This is true love. This is true friendship. This is true fraternity.