Kieth Little: This is, first of all, the reality of hosting a podcast with a young family, which, in fact, also includes a baby. And this week on the show, not babies, although it’s pretty cute, but Bishop Athanasius Schneider and one of my absolute knockdown, fantastic conversations on this show we’ve maybe ever had. We’re talking about what to do if you are a new Catholic, if you’re looking into the Catholic faith, you’re a Catholic convert, or you’ve been a Catholic for a long time, and it feels like the church is in crisis. That’s this week on the show. What do you do? How do you handle that? How do you understand that? How do you move forward in faith when it sometimes feels like the church is falling apart all around you? This isn’t a fear-mongering episode. It’s not a hopeless, despairing kind of thing.
This is real, honest, earnest, humble advice for those who are thinking of becoming Catholic, have just become Catholic, or are really new to the faith. It’s a fantastic episode, guys, I think you’ll love it. Let me know in the comments below, interact, and thanks for watching. Hey friends, welcome back. Thanks for watching, thank you for listening. If you are listening on podcast, thank you. Make sure you follow the show, leave a rating or review for listening on Apple Podcasts or on Spotify, and thanks for listening there. If you’re watching on YouTube, welcome. Thank you. Subscribe to our channel, hit the bell, like this video, and please interact in the comments.
Guys, my guest this week needs no real introduction. I’m joined by Bishop Athanasius Schneider. He is the only Bishop of Astana in Kazakhstan, a member of the Canons Regular of the Holy Cross of Coimbra, and the author of Credo: A Compendium of the Catholic Faith from Sophia Institute Press, very timely. Your Excellency, I can’t say enough. Thanks for being here, welcome to the show, and hello.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Thank you for the invitation. God bless you.
Kieth Little: Oh, thank you, Your Excellency. I’m thrilled to have you on the show. This will be, I think, a really fascinating discussion, because, as I mentioned, many listeners and viewers of the show are non-Catholic Christians looking into the Catholic faith, wondering what we’re doing in the church. I want to begin by asking you this question. Many converts, myself included, were attracted to the Catholic faith because of its clarity of teaching. The Catechism says what the Church believes. But when somebody becomes Catholic, they sometimes realize that what the Church teaches on paper doesn’t always match what they see in the parish from Catholics. What do you make, Your Excellency, of an experience like that, where a person might have become Catholic and realize, Wait a minute, this isn’t exactly what it says on paper, what I thought it was?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, the Catholic Church is not a perfect society because it consists of human beings who are weak, even in different positions, from the highest to the lowest. Our Lord Jesus Christ compared his church to a field where the good grain and the weeds grow together. Only at the end of time will the perfect church be in heaven. We call this the triumphant church. So the church is composed of three parts. This is the kingdom of God in this time until the coming of Christ, the definitive restoration of God’s kingdom in the heavenly Jerusalem. The church has three parts here on earth. It is called the militant church, which is fighting, but fighting against sin and the devil, or a pilgrimage church, consisting of members here on earth, both sinners and saints, or virtuous members. Then we have the suffering church, which consists of the souls of our departed in Purgatory, whose souls are still being purified in the other world. Finally, we have the so-called triumphant church in heaven, which includes the saints, the angels, and those who were purified after this life and admitted to the beatific vision of God.
This is the reality. It can occur that some representatives of the authority of the Church, or even Catholics, may differ in what they say, what they teach, and what they do. This is a reality we have to acknowledge and, on our part, do what we can with God’s grace to live according to what we believe. Even if we fail. We acknowledge and accept the commandments of God, but it occurs that even with good will, we sometimes fall and commit errors. Therefore, we have the possibility to repent, to confess our sins, and to receive God’s mercy and forgiveness in the sacrament of confession, provided we repent sincerely, of course, with the grace of God.
Kieth Little: Yeah, very well said. You know, one of the things that attracts people to Catholicism, and many guests on my show have articulated this, is that unlike a Protestant Christian tradition, where there are many different denominations and different interpretations of Scripture, Catholicism is clear. In works like yours, in Credo, in the Catechism, in the tradition that has deep roots, there is clarity in the teaching of the Catholic Church.
And so it’s confusing for people to become Catholic and then encounter groups in the church that seem to want to dismantle those traditions and push their boundaries as far as possible. People often become Catholic because of these traditions. We like the idea of a church with deep roots, and then we see members of the church, sometimes lay Catholics, sometimes people in authority, who try to push those boundaries. What should we make of that impulse to push boundaries? Where does it come from?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, it comes from evil, from the evil spirit, who penetrates even the church and tempts even the elect. Our Lord said to Peter, The devil desired to tempt you, but I prayed for you that your faith would not weaken, and once you convert, strengthen your brethren in faith. Since apostolic times, throughout the history of the church, we have always had this phenomenon, which we call heresies. This occurred even in apostolic times due to wrong teachings. Against these wrong teachings, the apostles already warned us. We can read this in the epistles of St. Paul, St. John, and St. Peter.
The Fathers of the Church continued to warn against wrong teachings within the community. There were times when wrong teachings spread widely in the life of the church, though rarely to such an extent. The most well-known example is the fourth-century Arian heresy, which was spread by clergy, priests, and bishops within the church. They denied the divinity of the Son of God and therefore denied the Trinity, the core of the Christian faith. Very few bishops in the fourth century remained faithful to the constant apostolic teaching of the Church, and they were persecuted even within the church. The most famous figure was St. Athanasius, and even at that time, St. Jerome formulated the phrase that the entire church was infected, contaminated by this heresy.
Because it is the Church of God, this heresy was eventually overcome and banned from the life of the church after many sufferings and spiritual trials, about sixty to seventy years later. Periodically, other phenomena occurred, though not to the vast extent of the Arian crisis. In the 16th century, we had the heresy of Martin Luther, John Calvin, and other so-called reformers, Protestants, many of whom were priests. This was also overcome by serious purification of the church through the Council of Trent and the succession of great saints and apostles of modern times, including Saint Ignatius, Saint Teresa of Avila, Saint Charles Borromeo, Francis de Sales, Francis Xavier, and others.
Since the Second Vatican Council, we have been witnessing a very broad situation of confusion in doctrine within the Catholic Church. We have reached a kind of culmination of this confusion, characterized by relativism. Relativism means that truth is not constant, that truth can change according to time. This is a very dangerous and cunning heresy, based on the philosophy of subjectivism from Kant and Hegel, which has penetrated the Catholic Church to a very great extent, even to all levels of truth. This is a great challenge, but God will again bring help to the Catholic Church in our current crisis, as he did in the past. The church will remain the Church of God, even though in the hands of God.
Kieth Little: Yeah, I was going to ask you, and I think you’ve already answered this question, Your Excellency. Historically, when we look back at the history of the church, it can feel some days like we are in a moment of confusion and division within the church. You talked about historically, Arianism struck almost the entire church. So, for perspective, the first letters of St. Paul were all about schisms and heresies in the church. This isn’t a new experience.
Do you think historically we are at a place we haven’t been before, or is this similar to crises that overtook the church in the past, like Arianism or the Reformation, which threatened to split the church permanently? Is what we are experiencing now different from those times?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, I think it is different regarding the extent. The crisis now is almost everywhere in the Catholic Church, especially in doctrinal confusion. I consider the most dangerous confusion to be the relativism regarding the uniqueness of the Church itself as the way of salvation and, thereby, Christ himself. Through the confused methods and practices of so-called interreligious meetings and dialogue with non-Christian religions or other confessions, the message is given that there are different ways to salvation. People can take parallel paths of salvation. Some think we can follow the way of Muslims or Buddhists and ultimately all reach the same goal.
This is relativism, relativizing the uniqueness of the Church founded by God Himself, the only one Church. There are not different churches. There is only one Church, built and founded by Jesus Christ, our God and Savior, which is the Catholic Church, united with the See of Peter. God gave this as the only unique, God-pleasing way to salvation. This must be stated. Of course, people in other religions or other Christian confessions can be saved, even without formally belonging to the Catholic Church, if they have a pure conscience and are not culpable in error. Only God knows the sincerity and purity of their hearts.
However, as religions or confessions, they are objectively not pleasing to God. We must preach the full truth to others. We cannot simply say, “Maybe you can be saved, God will find a way because you have a pure heart.” We do not know this. By withholding the fullness of truth, we deprive others of the unspeakable happiness of knowing Christ and living the fullness of truth on Earth in the one true Church, the Catholic Church, the only God-pleasing way to salvation.
Kieth Little: Yeah, very well said, Your Excellency. It feels like we live in a relativistic time, where it is considered offensive to say to someone, “You’re wrong, and I’m right,” because people want to get along. But at the same time, as you say, we deprive others of the uniqueness and beauty of the Catholic faith if we say, “You might be okay as you are.” We need to explain the Catholic faith.
In my own experience before becoming Catholic, and many guests on this show will say the same thing, you think you know what the Catholic Church teaches, but what you think is actually misinformation or misunderstanding. When you learn what the Catholic Church actually teaches, then you want to become Catholic. I think the problem we are seeing, and your work in Credo and your ministry, Your Excellency, is that we aren’t always teaching what the Catholic Church believes, so that others can truly know the faith. We avoid offending people by not fully teaching what the Church believes, but then they cannot know and cannot choose to become Catholic. Does that make sense?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, exactly. When we preach, it must be with love. Of course, we do not impose ourselves. We respect the liberty of every human person, but we can transmit to them the happiness and beauty of divine truth, the richness of the sacraments, and all the means of grace. If we truly love our neighbor, we must share this beauty. It is our duty. God will ask each of us at judgment, “Did you transmit my truth to your neighbor?”
If we hide this treasure, like the servant in the Gospel parable who buried his talent, we are condemned for not using what God gave us. The same applies to Catholics who know the Faith and are convinced of its truth and beauty, yet hide it and do not share it with others. By doing this, we commit a sin of omission, a lack of true love for our neighbor.
Kieth Little: Pope Benedict XVI talked about the church becoming a smaller church in the future, made up of Catholics who are more intentionally Catholic, who go out of their way to practice the faith, not just drift along. Do you see this vision still holding true? I’ve seen this in my own experience, and it almost feels like a prophecy that the church, in the future, will be a smaller Catholic Church.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, we are seeing this already. Even in the structures of the Catholic Church in the Western world, many parishes are closed or sold, and monasteries are closed. This is already a phenomenon. In the Western world, the percentage of Catholics attending Sunday Mass is decreasing, but at the same time, new groups are forming within the Church, committed to transmitting the integrity of the Catholic faith and teaching, and the integrity of the liturgy, including the traditional Latin liturgy.
These small communities are growing, very dynamic, and celebrating the treasure of the millennium-old liturgy passed down from our forefathers, together with true catechesis. This gives a sign of hope, but they are still a minority within the Church. Many official parishes, especially in America and Western Europe, are already penetrated with relativism in teaching and superficial forms of worship and liturgy, which are not attracting people. Eventually, these will collapse.
The true future of the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, lies in those communities where the faith of the apostles and the saints is kept intact, along with worship and moral life. Faith, teaching, worship, and moral life are inseparably united, and this will, in my opinion, also be the future of the Church.
We will not be privileged in the eyes of the world as the Church may have been in the Middle Ages or past centuries. The politicians and the powerful of this world are already anti-Christian, and some have begun subtle persecution against Christians who defend natural law, morality, the family, marriage, and the defense of life. This is a challenge for the Church, but also an opportunity for us to follow Christ and confess Him before the powerful, as the first Christians did. The apostles and early generations lived in an unbelieving world, yet they had God’s assistance to live with joy, conviction, love, and true faith.
Kieth Little: I like very much how you put together liturgy, moral life, and following the Catechism, Your Excellency. They go together. Many people on this show have expressed the same experience: they come into the Church because they love the liturgy, the Catechism, and the moral teaching of the Church. Once they become Catholic, they ask, “Is there a place here for me?” because some of these practices are actively discouraged, sometimes even at a hierarchical level.
You mentioned the traditional Latin Mass. Many converts are drawn to it because they love its beauty and reverence. They attend their local parish, only to find a watered-down liturgy that lacks the reverence they expected, missing what they read about or saw online. They envisioned the Mass as a touching of heaven and earth, and what they find does not match. Is there a place for these new Catholics in a Church that sometimes actively discourages this? Where do they fit?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, it is difficult. I acknowledge what you mentioned: converts are attracted to the Church by the beauty of the faith, the worship, and a sacred sublimity that attracts the human soul. Then they discover superficial, watered-down forms. This is a sad reality and a reflection of the current crisis within the Church, doctrinally, liturgically, and morally.
To these converts, I would say: do not be discouraged. Seek the places in the Church where Holy Mass and worship are still celebrated with dignity and sacredness. Hopefully, you can find a traditional Latin Mass, or at least a worthy form of the liturgy, even if it requires a longer trip for Sunday Mass. It is worthwhile. I remember growing up in the Soviet Union, during the persecution of the Church, when there were very few priests and places of worship. We had to travel long distances for Sunday Mass, but it was precious. God gave many graces for this, and it was worthwhile.
I encourage converts to seek and travel to those places where the faith and the liturgy are still kept with integrity and dignity.
Kieth Little: What do you think is necessary to help people understand the importance of that? I’m thinking of us, who are converts, who come into the faith, have read about the Church Fathers and the Catechism, and understand the importance of reverence and beauty. We go to seek that out, but sometimes we find liturgies that fail to do that. I think this happens in large part because some of the laity in those parishes were raised culturally Catholic, and some priests were educated without fully understanding, or were not given the opportunity to understand, the richness and importance of liturgy.
What has to happen, in your opinion, Your Excellency, to help the Church understand the importance of making liturgy more beautiful and reverent? This is something we need to tackle.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: I think first, priests have to recognize the treasure of the Holy Mass. As our Lord said to the Samaritan woman, “If you knew the gift of God…” if we knew the greatness and unspeakable beauty of the Eucharistic sacrifice, of worship, which is also a heavenly worship, together with the angels, adoring God during Holy Mass, the priest must be aware of this. The prayer of the Holy, Holy, Holy, the Sanctus, expresses this togetherness. The angels are present in every Mass; the Heavenly Court is present.
When a priest is aware of this, he must change his behavior, his manner of celebrating, to adapt to the unspeakable greatness and beauty of divine worship. The first step is to celebrate Mass facing the Lord, which is a basic requirement. In Scripture, all Israelites prayed in the same direction, our Lord in the synagogue, Mary and Joseph at home, always facing the temple in Jerusalem. They did not pray in a circle, looking at one another. Following this tradition is the first step in celebrating Mass towards the Lord.
Next, the liturgy should include moments of silence, allowing people to recollect and pray even during the official liturgy. The traditional liturgy provides this, for example, during the Eucharistic Prayer. Receiving the Lord, the King of Kings, during Holy Communion, kneeling is fitting for creatures to greet God truly present. Receiving Him on the tongue, with humility and care, reflects the inestimable gift of His body and blood. These are some examples that can be implemented easily by the priest.
Unfortunately, the Church is currently infected with a fashion of superficiality. First, the Pope should provide concrete instructions, and then the bishops should implement these points practically. This will happen, but in the meantime, we must do what we can in our own places.
Kieth Little: Yes, because my understanding of the restrictions placed on the Latin Mass was that the Novus Ordo Mass would adopt these beautiful elements. The hope was that the Roman Rite in the Western Church would reflect the beauty of the Latin Mass and some of the reforms from Vatican II. But this will not happen by itself. Liturgists I follow, and many guests on this show, talk about the importance of implementing these elements in every parish. But it cannot happen without direction. Someone has to say, “Here is what we must begin to do.”
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes. Everyone, in their place, should start improving the celebration of the liturgy, whether priests or bishops. Ultimately, however, it must come from Rome, because we are a hierarchical Church. We must pray that, in the future, the Holy See will provide very clear instructions and helpful guidance to bishops and priests to improve the liturgy so that it truly reflects the fullness and beauty of the Catholic faith.
Kieth Little: What can I, or the average person in the pew, do in the church they are in now, in the liturgy they are part of, which might be lacking some of those reverent elements? What can we do ourselves to begin to make a change, and how is that going to change us as we participate in the liturgy?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: First, you have to deepen your knowledge and love for the truth of the Eucharist, the greatness of what is happening in the Mass, the truth of the Holy Mass, and the Holy Eucharist. Read the old catechisms or the right writings of the saints about the Holy Eucharist. This is the first step, and accordingly, your behavior should follow. Kneel when you receive Holy Communion; this is a natural consequence. Kneel more during Mass. Participate in Eucharistic Adoration when the Blessed Sacrament is exposed. Visit adoration chapels. Spread tools and materials about the beauty and greatness of the Eucharist. These are practical ways to help.
Kieth Little: So I kneel, and others might say, “Hey, why is he kneeling?” Then my job becomes to tell people, “Here is what Bishop Athanasius said, here is what we should be doing.”
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: No, you do not have to say, “Bishop Athanasius said this.” You simply say, “I am kneeling because it is my Lord. I cannot kneel.” You could add, “If you see the Lord in His glory, you would not only kneel, you would prostrate yourself on the floor, as the apostles and the women did before the risen Lord, as the angels do in heaven.” Read the book of Revelation; this is what we will do in heaven. It is logical and simple.
Kieth Little: I love that. In many places, the Catholic faith is just a cultural thing. Kids are baptized because you baptize them. People go to church at Easter or Christmas, maybe even most Sundays, because that is what they do. But there is a difference between knowing the faith and practicing it. What can be done to help Catholics recognize that difference, to move from just knowing the faith to actually embodying it and making it central to their lives?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: In this case, they do not truly know their faith. If they knew the greatness of the Holy Mass, they would never miss Sunday Mass. Catholics who go occasionally do not know what Holy Mass truly is. If they knew, they would never miss it.
Kieth Little: Is there a way to help those people move closer to understanding their faith, or is this just a cultural thing that will fade? I became Catholic later because the Catholics I knew did not really know what they were doing. Many converts share this experience.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: We must help them. Spread good literature, maybe small pamphlets or booklets, on the greatness and beauty of the Holy Mass and the Christian life. Give them something in hand to read. Invite them to retreats or conferences to help them deepen their faith.
Kieth Little: You wrote this compendium of Catholic teaching during the Synod on Synodality, during this period of listening to the people. One of the great strengths of the Church, especially from a convert’s perspective, is the magisterium, the teaching authority passed down from Christ to the apostles to the bishops. Many good Catholics get nervous when they hear some of the things the Church is listening to during the Synod. What do you think needs to be heard? What should the Church be listening to that it is not hearing right now?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Our Lord did not say to the apostles, “Go and listen to the people.” He said, “Go and teach all nations what I have told you.” This is the divine mission of the Church. When the Church does not do this, those in the hierarchy are committing a grave sin of omission and will have to give a severe account on the judgment of God.
The first task is to listen to the Word of God. God the Father said during the baptism of our Lord and at the Transfiguration, “This is my beloved Son, listen to Him.” Our Lord gave us His teaching in the Gospel and in His revelation. We must listen to this, not to the wishes of people who are not practicing, not believing, or not deep in faith.
We must listen to those who are living their faith, who are spiritually deep, usually saints or proven people of doctrine and morals. Seeking counsel from anyone else, just anyone on the street, is against basic prudence. We must seek counsel from wise, proven people of God. Listening to everyone else is the completely wrong way, not the way of God or Christ.
Kieth Little: Yeah, it seems sometimes, especially, I have a friend who said this before, that if we were living, Your Excellency, in the medieval Church, if we were peasant farmers, even if I were a peasant farmer and you were still a bishop, we would not have the kind of communication we have now, with Twitter, Facebook, and the news media. The news cycle, some days especially, makes a lot of Catholics nervous. Any voice can be amplified in the Church, whether it is a person, as you say, who is living a holy life, a person in authority, part of the magisterium, or speaking for the Church, or just a priest writing on Twitter or Instagram. It makes Catholics nervous. They hear a loud voice and assume it represents the whole Church. How should a Catholic who is trying to follow the Church respond when amplified voices on the margins of the Church confuse everyone in the pews?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: We have to use common sense and prudence. We are not little children. First, we must know our catechism. Read the good old catechisms and say, “I know this, and I will not allow anyone to confuse me.” These catechisms contain the constant, perennial teaching of the apostles and of the Catholic Church. We should not follow amplified voices on the internet, even if they come from Catholics or bishops. We need calm maturity to discern. Say, “No, this voice is not balanced.” Be prudent and balanced. Know your faith and follow those voices or sources that present Catholic teaching in a proven, balanced manner, but do not follow extreme or unbalanced voices.
Kieth Little: Yes, and we can check these things against the catechism. If we hear something on the internet, from a neighbor, or on the news, we can compare it to what the Church actually teaches. This is a practical way to remain prudent, to understand our faith clearly, and to explain it to others. We do not have to make it up as we go along.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, we must ask the Lord to be balanced, prudent, and strong in our convictions of the Catholic faith. Unfortunately, today, there are voices even from the Vatican, from high-ranking hierarchs and clergy, which are confusing. In such cases, we follow what we know from traditional catechisms and the encyclicals of past popes. We do not follow extremes, such as declaring that the Pope is no longer Pope or forming our own traditional communities outside the Church. That is a sectarian reaction. If something the Pope or a bishop says is ambiguous or confusing, they remain in office. We pray for them, knowing our faith, and trust that God will intervene to give us shepherds who are strong in faith and clear. We simply endure difficult times, based on our convictions in the traditional faith, avoiding extreme human solutions, which are not the way of God or the constant tradition of the Church.
Kieth Little: Very well said. One more question: what advice do you have for people becoming Catholic in a Church that seems to be in crisis? These new Catholics believe Peter is the rock, they believe in the magisterium and apostolic succession, they love the beauty of worship and the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. They come into a Church that seems in crisis. What would you say to them, Your Excellency?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: I would say, you know the truth. You know the Catholic truth from the good catechisms. You know the history of the Church. Our Lord said, “The gates of hell will never prevail against my Church,” which is built upon Peter. There were several attempts by the enemies of hell to prevail, but they did not succeed. Throughout history, there were confusions, but the Lord saved His Church from these trials, and He will do so in our time. You join the Church not because of any person. You do not join because of a Pope or a bishop. You join because the Catholic Church is true, the only unique way of salvation, even if there are bad shepherds or confusing leaders. The Church is a divine institution. God permits, in a mysterious way, some unfaithful shepherds, even supreme ones, but they are not eternal. They will pass, but the Catholic Church in truth will never pass.
Kieth Little: Well said, Your Excellency. It’s been an absolute pleasure to have you on the show. What a grace for our audience. For myself, I want to thank you. As we close, would you pray for the listeners to this show and the audience of this podcast, and then we’ll say goodbye?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, with great pleasure. I will pray for all who listen to your program. And now I will give you the blessing in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.
Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come; thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us, and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. Amen.
Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
May the Almighty God bless you, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Kieth Little: Amen. Thank you so much, Bishop Athanasius Schneider, Your Excellency. Thanks for being here on the show. It’s been wonderful. I appreciate it. Thank you for your time.