Eric Sammons: The Mass is the central prayer and activity of the Catholic Church. How can we keep God central in the Mass? We’re going to talk about that today on Crisis Point. Hello, I’m Eric Sammons, your host and editor in chief of Crisis Magazine. Today, we are very honored by our guest, Bishop Athanasius Schneider. He is the auxiliary bishop of Kazakhstan and a member of the Canons Regular of the Holy Cross of Coimbra. He is the author of several excellent books, which I have read, and his most recent is The Catholic Mass. Let me put it up here on the screen, The Catholic Mass: Steps to Restore the Centrality of God in the Liturgy. Welcome to the program, Your Excellency.
I want to first start with the importance of the Mass. Obviously, you wrote a book about the Mass. I think every Catholic knows how important it is. You titled two chapters of your book: one was The Mass is the Church’s Life, and the second was The Mass is Salvation Source. Both titles struck me because they make the centrality of the Mass in our lives so clear. What do you mean by those statements, that the Mass is the Church’s life and its salvation source?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, because our Lord Jesus Christ said, I came to give life and life in abundance, and the purpose of God’s incarnation and our salvation consists exactly in sharing in the supernatural, divine life of the Most Holy Trinity. This is the unspeakable gift of God to us sinners, to let us enter or participate so that we can share, He can share with us, His inner divine life of the Holy Trinity. This is the life for us, the supernatural life, the life of grace. This is true life, and we have to stress this today, because, as we know, we can observe that for decades, another concept of life has pervaded the thinking within the Church, a confused one, because it stresses more the issues of earthly life, of temporal life.
This has been a tendency in the last decades, that Church authorities and Church men occupy themselves primarily with the issues of this earthly life, as they say, justice issues, issues of climate, and so on. This is a betrayal because we are called to eternity, and we have to stress this again. The Holy Mass is exactly the source and the place where we can receive this divine life for our souls, and holiness is the fruit of redemption, because this supernatural, divine life is a gift for us, a fruit of the work of redemption. Concretely, this life, this true life, is the fruit of the sacrifice of the Cross of our Lord. It flows from the sacrifice of the Cross. The sacrifice of the Cross is the source from which all graces flow for us, first the grace of divine filiation, and then participation in the divine life is given to us.
Eric Sammons: Okay. Now, in your book, the subtitle is Steps to Restore the Centrality of God in the Liturgy. What I liked about the book was that some people might think you are just talking about the clergy and what they need to do, and that is definitely a part of the book, but there is also a discussion about the laity. How would you say, just for a lay Catholic, how can he or she live out the Mass? Meaning, how can he or she make God central in their participation? There is a lot of talk about dramatic or active participation and debates about it. But how would you say a layperson can make God central when they attend Mass?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: They have to be aware of what the Holy Mass is and deepen their knowledge and faith in it. As our Lord said to the Samaritan woman, “If you knew the gift of God…” We have to ask ourselves as lay faithful, do we really know this gift? The Holy Mass is the greatest gift God could give humanity. When lay faithful go to the Holy Mass, when they wake in the morning, they should say, “Today I will receive the greatest grace in my life by participating truly in the sacrifice of Golgotha, really in a sacramental way, but in a real way.”
We should feel as if we are standing beneath the Cross 2,000 years ago, spiritually with Our Lady, with Saint John, with Mary Magdalene. This awareness should touch our souls and inflame our love and desire to participate in the Holy Mass. When lay people enter the church and participate, it would be good for them to say to themselves, “Now I am coming to the sacrifice of Golgotha.” This interior awareness is the true and deepest form of active participation.
Imagine if you had been present 2,000 years ago beneath the Cross with Our Lady and Saint John. You would not think about doing something externally active, as some people believe is necessary in Holy Mass, like reading, going to the sanctuary, or continuously singing. That could be part of it, but it is not the essential or deepest participation. The deepest participation is to look spiritually upon the Cross, upon the crucifix, upon the altar, and concentrate especially on the moment of the consecration, when the priest lifts up our Crucified Lord. At that moment, all the angels fall on their faces around the altar. Imagine the feelings you must have in your soul in that moment. When you are spiritually united in this way, especially during the consecration, you have participated very actively.
Eric Sammons: And you talk in the book about listening, listening to the Word. Obviously, when we’re at Mass, we’re going to listen to the readings when they are being proclaimed, and that’s an obvious way, but you go deeper. If I’m at Mass, how am I listening to the Word other than just simply listening to the readings at the beginning?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, this is also an important part of the Holy Mass, as the Holy Spirit guided the Church to make the readings of the Word of God a proclamation of the Word of God, a part of the Holy Sacrifice of the Eucharist. This is a preparation of our soul because this is the Word of God, not of man. Therefore, we have to have reverence and respect toward the Word of God, which is proclaimed and read during the Holy Mass. During this time, when we are listening or reading in a missal the text of Holy Scripture, especially the Gospel, we can make a kind of spiritual communion with this truth, with this Word of God, listening carefully as Our Lady did. It is written in the Gospel of Luke that Mary kept all these words in her heart and reflected on them.
This helps us when we carefully listen to the Word of God. In the Mass in Latin, when the readings are in Latin, we can take the missal and accompany every word. It is important that we carefully accompany the Word of God. This also helps us resist the distractions of the mind. Our minds must be centered and concentrated during the Holy Mass. Sometimes a book can help because when we are simply hearing, it could happen that we are distracted by other thoughts. But when you take the missal and accompany every word by reading, it can help against distractions.
Reading and looking at the text can leave a deeper impression in the mind, though it depends on the person; some prefer to hear, others prefer to read. The main point is that you are taking the words of God into your heart, letting them enter your mind and your heart. This is a very good preparation for the moment of the consecration, the moment of the sacrifice in a strict sense.
Eric Sammons: And then you also talk in the book about sacred music. For a lot of people, the music at Mass is more distracting than uplifting. How should the music draw us into listening and participating in the Mass? What is the role of sacred music in the Mass?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: First, we have to go back and be aware of what Holy Mass is. Holy Mass, therefore, the book starts with the first chapter, which is prayer. We have to state that it is a prayer. It is not a performance, even a beautiful one, but it is a prayer. All elements in Holy Mass, from the beginning to the end, should help us pray. Prayer is lifting up your heart and mind to God. Therefore, there is this beautiful expression in the liturgy, Lift up your hearts. The answer is, we have them lifted up to the Lord. This is the role of music.
Music as such is not of first importance in holiness but has secondary importance. Music is a tool to help lift up our hearts, to pray better, and to unite our souls with God. Music should create an atmosphere of prayer, not simply noise. The melody and musical laws should not distract us or create a worldly atmosphere, because a worldly atmosphere distracts from lifting up our hearts. Prayer requires recollection, and music should help us be recollected. From this recollection also comes joy in the Lord.
People often confuse joy. They think being joyful in the Lord means clapping hands or moving the body to express joy. This is superficial because it focuses on exterior expressions, while interior depth is needed. As we know from the example of the Prophet Elijah, when the Lord showed him how he could meet Him, there was noise, an earthquake, and wind, but the Lord was not in these. Then came a very quiet, soft atmosphere, and then was the voice. Music should be like this: secondary, not drawing attention to itself, helping us hear God.
Musicians in the Church should not present themselves. Otherwise, it becomes a performance and destroys the spirit. Historically, until the Middle Ages, musical instruments were forbidden because they could distract us and tempt performers to show off. Only vocal music was allowed, and later, the organ was allowed to support the voice. Music should help us pray better, in a solemn way. Saint Augustine says it is a double prayer: prayer and music together.
Religious music outside Holy Mass can be beautiful and joyful, but during Mass, everything should be penetrated with the spirit of prayer, praising God, and creating a solemn atmosphere.
Eric Sammons: Let’s talk a little bit now about the actual celebration of the Mass. I think one of the great crises of our time is how Mass is being celebrated. One thing I want to add is that at the core of the Mass, as we know, it is a sacrifice. But for the typical Catholic, at least in the Western world, when we attend a typical parish, the idea of sacrifice is definitely not obvious, not clear to the people attending, because, as you already mentioned, it seems more like a performance at times. How do we bring back the sacrificial nature and make it clear to everybody that this is a sacrifice taking place at the Mass?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: I think the indispensable step is that in all churches worldwide, the Holy Mass should be celebrated by the priest facing the Lord, as we say, ad orientem. The priest and the faithful should turn their faces in the same direction, toward the crucifix, the altar, and the tabernacle. This is indispensable because it is the expression of sacrifice. The priest and the people are offering to the Lord, visibly. This visible position to offer sacrifice to the Lord is necessary. The Church has always prayed in this way.
It was the same attitude in the Temple of Jerusalem, which God commanded. It is also a common human need in all religions to look together in the same direction. When we look at one another, as is done in the current arrangement after the Council, it resembles a simple gathering. The priest looks at the people as if giving a lecture, or we sit around a table. In this arrangement, the altar is like a table in a closed circle. This is contrary to the basic human feeling, which is to turn together toward the Lord and bring Him a gift, the greatest gift, the Body and Blood of Christ, which He left to His Church.
We have to restore this. This was the constant form transmitted by the apostles to the Church. The Fathers of the Church, close to apostolic times, said that praying while looking toward the east, toward the rising sun, together in the same direction, is a law of the Holy Apostles. It is apostolic, and therefore, we cannot change it. We have to return to this apostolic law. All Oriental churches still celebrate the Holy Liturgy facing the Lord in the same direction. Only the Latin Rite, after the Council, changed this according to the Protestant style of worship. Calvinists, and even the Lutheran liturgy, always had the pastor standing at the altar facing the Lord. The post-Council arrangement in the Latin Rite comes from the Calvinist tradition, where there was no feeling or belief in the real presence of the Lord and the sacrifice. Returning to the constant apostolic tradition of celebrating the liturgy toward the Lord is indispensable.
Eric Sammons: It seems that when we turn the priest around, as you said, it turns more into a meeting or a lecture around a table. That then altered the shape of our architecture. All of a sudden, we started building churches that were often round and more like meeting halls or lecture halls than like the old churches, where the priest is facing the altar on the back wall, and you have this beautiful altar that everybody looks toward. Now, since you are looking at each other, it almost disintegrates the architecture around it. What is the role of architecture in helping us understand what the Mass is, and that it is a sacrifice, and things of that nature?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Architecture again has a ministerial meaning, to help express the essence of Holy Mass, which is a sacrifice. All elements of architecture have to help express this central truth that Holy Mass is first and foremost a sacrifice, and therefore, the building must reflect this. The focus is the altar at the center, and everything has to be oriented toward the altar. The priest has to stand before the altar, facing it together with the faithful. Behind the altar, there must be an expression of art that helps the priest and people to be aware that what we are doing is the sacramental celebration of the sacrifice of Golgotha. There should always be a beautiful crucifix on the altar as a representation of our Crucified Lord, and also the presence of the saints and the heavenly Church during the sacrifice of Mass.
In ancient times, altars were built with a wall behind them, where in the center was often a crucifix, the main patron of the church, or the main mystery to which the church was dedicated. Even if smaller, there should always be a crucifix to remind people that this is the sacrifice of the Cross. Behind the altar, there could also be art expressing in a dignified, beautiful manner the mysteries of our faith. This is similar to what the Orthodox and Oriental churches do with the iconostasis. The priest is behind the iconostasis, which is closer to the people, so they can contemplate during Mass the representations of the mysteries of our faith and of the saints. Even in the Byzantine Church, the priest is behind the iconostasis, and there is still a representation of our Lord on the cross, sometimes even painted for the priest.
In the Latin Church, the altar itself can have a representation of our Lord behind it. This is very helpful. Sometimes, when there is a very long presbytery or sanctuary in ancient churches and cathedrals, the altar could be closer to the people, but still facing east, depending on the architecture. The main meaning of architecture is to help people and priests feel that they are entering the house of God. We are not entering a market hall, a lecture hall, or a gathering hall, but the house of God. Like Jacob experienced, seeing angels coming down from heaven and going back, he said, “Here is nothing else than the gate of heaven, the house of God.” Those responsible for art and architecture, especially the bishop and the priest, have to build and embellish the church in such a way that, when people enter, they can experience a small piece of heaven on earth. This is the meaning of art and architecture.
Eric Sammons: Now, since at least the fourth century, Latin has been the language of the liturgy in the West, and that has been the case even after Latin was no longer the common language of the people. Vatican II even stated that Latin should have primacy in the liturgy, but it allowed an opening for the vernacular. Now, of course, almost everywhere in the West, the Mass is celebrated in the vernacular. Most Catholics, if you ask them, would say they prefer the vernacular to understand what the priest is saying. But what would you say is the role of Latin, obviously, in the Latin Rite?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Latin is a so-called sacred language. All liturgies, even the Eastern liturgies, have kept a kind of sacred language. In ancient times and even now, all Oriental churches maintain a sacred language exclusively used for worship and praising God. It is not the same language spoken on the streets. Some Oriental churches in the West have adopted the local language, such as English, but not in the East. For example, the Coptic Church and the Ethiopian Church still keep the old language. There are some similarities with the spoken language, but it is not the same. The Church Slavonic liturgy, for example, is not modern Russian. People are aware that they are hearing a language not used every day. They may understand some words, as Latin is closer to English or German, but it is still distinct.
Even in Islam, in all countries, Muslims must pray officially in Arabic in mosques. They learn Arabic for prayer, even if their own language is different. African Muslims or Germans who converted to Islam learn Arabic to worship officially. Privately, they may pray in their own language, but not officially. It is a common need of humanity to use a solemn language for official worship, to express that God is a mystery. God is not a mathematical formula to be explained rationally. God is the deepest mystery, unspeakable, and the sacred language shows this. In private prayer at home, one can speak to God with one’s own words, as Our Lord said, but the official veneration requires a sacred language to express the mystery.
Of course, there are moments in the liturgy where the vernacular is used. The homily and the readings of Holy Scripture can be in the local language, so the faithful can understand. There is also space for local languages in sacred songs at the beginning or in some parts of the Mass. But the main part, expressing the mystery, is the Eucharistic Prayer, starting with Lift up your hearts to God. These moments should be in a sacred language to remind us that we are entering the mystery of God. People can have booklets to accompany the prayers in Latin.
When the Roman liturgy was first established, it was in Greek because most Christians in Rome spoke Greek. In the fourth century, it was changed to Latin. Some say the Church adopted the vernacular language, but that is not correct. The Latin adopted by the Church in the first century was not the common spoken language of the streets. It was a very high-style Latin, sacred, not the everyday dialect close to modern Italian. The Church did not adapt the Latin spoken in the streets, but used this high-style, sacred Latin. Therefore, we must return to the Latin Church, at least in the West, to maintain this. It was not only the desire but the obligation of the Second Vatican Council, which established that Latin should be kept in the Latin liturgy. Now we must return to this command and ensure that in the Roman Rite, all over the world, the central part of the Mass is everywhere, without exception, in Latin, as mandated by the Second Vatican Council.
Eric Sammons: It is a good reminder of how you break it up, because you say we can speak in the vernacular, maybe for the readings or the homily, but it reminds us that if the canon is in Latin, we are talking to God. The priest is talking to God; he is praying to God, not talking to us. I think that is one of the issues a lot of people have in the Mass—they feel like it is a dialogue between the priest and the people. But during the canon, or the Eucharistic Prayer, that is when the priest is talking to God. I want to move on to the Mass most Catholics worldwide attend, which is the Novus Ordo. The traditional Latin Mass has become more popular, but it is still a very small number of people who attend. We see lots of non-traditional elements in the Novus Ordo as it is actually practiced. There are some places where it is celebrated more traditionally, but in most places, you have Communion in the hand, versus Populum, the priest facing the people, women in the sanctuary. How have all these non-traditional elements crept in over time and become the norm for most Catholics? How can we start to restore tradition in the Novus Ordo? Is that even possible?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: I think it is not only possible, it is necessary, but first, we have to undo some myths. There is no one word in the council texts that even in the least form encourages the celebration versus Populum, facing the people. On the contrary, in Sacrosanctum Concilium, paragraph two, it says that in worship, what is human should be subordinated and oriented toward what is divine, toward the eternal. The human action should be subordinated and oriented toward contemplation. This is the law. The shape versus Populum destroys this law established or reaffirmed by the Second Vatican Council.
Second, there is no word in the council text permitting Holy Communion on the hand or standing. There is no word in the council text suggesting women or laypeople should enter the sanctuary in civil clothes, like in a Protestant prayer meeting. There is no word in the council text that the entire Mass should be in the vernacular. On the contrary, there is an obligation that at least part of the Mass should be in Latin. The council also states that Gregorian Chant should have central importance in the liturgy. Therefore, we must go back and reintroduce in the Novus Ordo these elements of constant teaching and law and liturgy, which the Church transmitted and which are expressed in the council text.
First, the priest and people should face the same direction. Latin should be introduced in the central part of the Mass, the canon, and it should be said in silence, because the council text says contemplation should come first and action second. The atmosphere of contemplation and silence during the canon should be maintained to encourage prayer and reflection. During the Mass, only men vested with proper vestments should be in the sanctuary, expressing the solemnity and dignity of the liturgy. The sanctuary represents the ministerial priesthood, while the nave symbolizes the common priesthood. Women, by Divine Law, are not called to share this ministerial priesthood, so they should not be in the sanctuary during the liturgy.
We should also restore traditional offertory prayers. Some of the prayers currently used in the Novus Ordo are from the Jewish Sabbath service or Protestant tradition and are not expressions of the sacrifice we are offering. Communion prayers in the Novus Ordo resemble a Protestant service rather than the celebration of the sacrifice of the Cross. These should be replaced with traditional prayers. There should also be only one Eucharistic Prayer, the Roman Canon, which is the typical expression of the Roman liturgy. This preserves the richness and tradition of the Church.
Another important step is to restore communion on the tongue, and possibly kneeling. Communion in the hand is the source of a deep Eucharistic crisis, because many fragments of the Host fall on the floor and are trampled. This is an abuse of the Eucharistic love of Our Lord. This practice cannot continue. It is the duty of the Pope and the bishops to restore the most sure, respectful, and worthy manner of receiving the Lord.
Eric Sammons: Now, practically speaking, here in the States, there are a number of bishops who have actually banned at orientem worship. They’ve told their priests that they are not allowed to celebrate the Mass at orientem. And of course, I would imagine in every single diocese here, in most Western countries, and probably around the world, communion on the hand is always allowed. If a priest at a parish said you have to receive on the tongue, he would get in a lot of trouble with his bishop. What can a priest do in these situations where he is not allowed to celebrate at orientem or only give communion on the tongue? What should a priest do in that situation?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: First, the bishop has no authority to forbid the celebration at orientem. There is no law in the Church that commands it or makes it obligatory. There is a document from the Holy See, Divine Worship, Congregation, from 2000, which addresses this. This was in response to a Dubia. Cardinal Schoenberg of Vienna wrote a dubium to the congregation, and the congregation answered. This answer was published in the official documents. He asked whether celebration towards the people is obligatory, and the Holy See answered that it is not obligatory. It is also possible to celebrate at orientem, even though celebration towards the people is recommended, but not obligatory. Therefore, bishops who forbid the celebration at orientem are abusing their power.
The issue of communion in the hand is more delicate. This practice was introduced by several episcopal conferences as allowed for the faithful who wish it. Formally, according to the law, a priest does not have the right to deny communion in the hand, strictly speaking. However, there is also a law in the Church. In the document Redemptionis Sacramentum of John Paul II, it is stated that no one can be denied communion on the tongue. Today, unfortunately, there are priests and even some bishops who deny people communion on the tongue.
The same document also states that when a priest observes a danger to the reverence of the Most Blessed Sacrament, he can give Holy Communion only on the tongue. This is a norm that a priest can follow. For example, if he observes that small fragments of the Host are falling, this is a real danger to the Eucharistic Body of Christ. He can claim this law, Redemptionis Sacramentum, and explain to his bishop: I cannot give communion in the hand because it exposes the Lord to real danger.
The priest can also follow his conscience, understanding the greatness of Our Lord in the Eucharist. He must accept the possible consequences if the bishop punishes him or attempts to remove him for refusing to give communion in the hand. I would have great respect for these priests, and I think the Lord will reward them both in heaven and on earth as priests, confessors, defenders, and lovers of the Eucharist.
Eric Sammons: Now, one thing, last time I spoke with you on the podcast a few months ago, we talked about the traditional Latin Mass and the traditional status. Of course, as we know the history, the traditional Latin Mass was essentially suppressed in the Church for a long time. John Paul II then allowed it to some extent, and Pope Benedict, of course, liberalized its celebration. Now Pope Francis is restricting it. I want to ask you, what do you see as the future for the Mass in the Roman Rite? Pope Benedict clearly saw it as a mutual enrichment of the two forms, as he called them: the ordinary form and the extraordinary form. Pope Francis, however, has spoken of the Novus Ordo as the unique expression of the Roman Rite. How do you see the future? Do you see mutual enrichment? Do you see the traditional Mass coming back? Do you think the Novus Ordo will eventually become more traditional?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: I think that the traditional Roman Rite is growing. We can observe this since the moment the Popes liberalized it more, beginning with John Paul II, and then Benedict XVI. After 2007, with the Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum of Pope Benedict XVI, the traditional Mass was truly set free. It started its course of triumph, especially among young people. Truth and beauty naturally attract, and the Novus Ordo, which is often deficient in objective sacredness and sacred beauty, is less attractive. The traditional form, by contrast, is deeply attractive.
We often hear a comparison: when you free a lion, it will defend itself. Let the traditional liturgy be free, and it will defend itself. Those ruling in Rome now have temporal power; it is limited in time. They are scared of this lion because they see the traditional Mass as something powerful, and they try to put it back in the cage. But God is more powerful than these prohibitions. Even now, though the cage is closed, some small lions have escaped and continue to grow in various places, sometimes celebrating the Mass in a semi-clandestine or hidden form. These small lions will grow, and in time, the traditional liturgy of the saints will be more present in the life of the Church.
Even under the current restrictions, we must maintain hope. The limitation of the traditional Mass is often ideologically motivated, and the claim that the Novus Ordo is the unique expression of the Roman Rite is not correct. For example, there is the Zaire Rite in Congo, which is a form of the Roman Rite adapted to African culture. There are also other forms within the Roman Rite, such as the Dominican Rite, and even the ordinary form of the ex-Anglicans. Therefore, saying that the Novus Ordo is the unique Roman Rite is not correct. Moreover, the same people who claim this support so-called liturgical plurality and diverse expressions of the Novus Ordo. They cannot claim a single uniform expression while promoting multiple styles.
Eric Sammons: Okay. I think we’re going to wrap it up here. First of all, I want to encourage everybody to get Bishop Schneider’s book, The Catholic Mass. It’s excellent, from Sophia Institute Press. I’ll put a link to it in the show notes for people so they can easily purchase it. Your Excellency, I was hoping you could give a blessing to the audience now.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes. Dominus vobiscum, et cum, spiritu tuo. Et benedictio dei omnipotentis, Patris et Filii et spiritus Santi descendant, super vos et maneat semper
Amen. Praise be Jesus Christ, now and forever.
Eric Sammons: Thank you very much, Your Excellency. I really appreciate you being on the podcast. Okay, everybody, until next time.