Raymond Arroyo: He is the auxiliary bishop of Astana, Kazakhstan, and a well-known defender of traditional church teaching. He joins me this evening to share his thoughts on the Synod on Synodality, the attack on the traditional Latin liturgy, and his latest book, The Catholic Mass. Please welcome Bishop Athanasius Schneider back to the program. Your Excellency, thanks for being here.
I want to start with some important news. It was announced earlier this week that Pope Francis has extended the final phase of this Synod on Synodality by another year. So that means there will be two sessions, one in October of 2023 and another in October of 2024. Pope Francis explained himself this way: “I hope that this decision will favor the comprehension of synodality as a constitutive dimension of the church and help everyone to live it as a journey of brothers and sisters who witness to the joy of the Gospel.” Your Excellency, what is meant by a constitutive dimension of the church, and what do you make of this one-year extension?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: The constitutive element of the church is first given by God, and this is the faithful, unchanging transmission of the deposit of faith, the Catholic truth, to all generations. The Synod, as always, is understood by the church as a means to guarantee the faithful transmission of faith. The Synod has also always been understood and practiced as a means to condemn heresies and defend the flock of the faithful from the poison of ambiguity, heresies, and scandals. This is the aim of a Synod, as the church has always understood. What we are currently witnessing, this so-called synodality with these discussions, is a misuse of the concept of the word “Synod,” and, in my opinion, even an abuse of this word for an agenda to undermine, to make more ambiguous, the Catholic faith, and to adapt it to the wishes and fashions of our day. This is evidently the final goal of this whole process of synodality.
Raymond Arroyo: Last week, Pope Francis received the full report on the diocesan phase of this Synod on synodality, where they polled all the dioceses of the world, and they have turned in their reports. This presumably will be the instrumentum laboris, the working document for the next phase of the Synod. How might the diocesan report, do you think, have influenced his decision to add another session? I mean, the pope also mentioned that it is not necessary to be in a rush with these proceedings. Does all that concern you at all?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: The diocesan processes of the synodality are not transparent. There is much evidence that good Catholics, traditional Catholics, were simply despised and not listened to. We have many proofs of this. It was a selective method to hear only those promoting the agenda of changing and undermining the Catholic faith and discipline of the church. Many people told me that, in several dioceses, priests were invited, but their contributions were not taken into account in any way.
Raymond Arroyo: Your Excellency, with only 1 percent or less of baptized Catholics participating in this process, does it really reflect the will of the people of God? Does this even reflect listening to the Spirit, or is this basically a rigged game from the beginning, manipulated? Maybe that is the better term.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: It is the right term, as you mentioned: manipulation in the hands of those who occupy high-ranking posts in the church. They want to push their own ideological agenda, but the church is not a parliament with democratic methods. This is not given by God. The church has a hierarchical structure, and the first mission of the church is to teach, not to ask for opinions. Our Lord said to the apostles, “Go and teach,” not “Go and listen to opinions.” This is never Catholic. It is worldly. Therefore, we must return to the church, the pope, and the bishops to teach the same faith as the apostles transmitted, and as all the saints and Popes in the past 2,000 years have transmitted unchangingly.
Raymond Arroyo: Bishop, what are you hearing from your fellow bishops about this upcoming Synod? Have you reached out to them? Are they pleased with the process as it moves through Rome?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Many bishops I have met are concerned about these methods and processes, fearing that there is already a pre-established agenda in Rome. This process is only a tool to cover up a pre-established agenda, and we must be very concerned about these methods.
Raymond Arroyo: Two weeks ago, I sat down with the former head of the CDF, Cardinal Gerhard Müller. I’m sure you read those comments. They made headlines around the world. These were his thoughts on the synodal process. As someone who has dedicated his life to protecting and extending doctrine, what must you think as you watch a system being created where all that doctrine seems to be up for grabs, Your Eminence?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: I completely agree with Cardinal Müller. It is really a self-revelation. This is a temptation of current men in the church in the Vatican, using the tool of synodality to present a new self-revelation adapted to the tastes of the modern world, the unbelieving world. I also completely agree with the expression “a hostile takeover of the church” by those people who have probably lost their faith or want to work for an agenda to further undermine Catholic truth.
Raymond Arroyo: We have to step back for a moment. The organizers of this Synod can’t even agree on a definition of synodality. They say it’s accompaniment, walking into the future, praying together, and listening for the Holy Spirit. But for the record, this was the dream of Cardinal Martini, the left-wing Jesuit, who had the idea of a new way of making decisions with everyone coming around the table rather than revealed truth moving through the hierarchy. Is that what we’re seeing here, the revelation of Cardinal Martini?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, and we have examples from history. I would mention the Arian crisis in the fourth century, where there were continuous synods, and each synod produced documents that undermined the revealed dogma proclaimed by the Council of Nicaea, on the consubstantiality of the Son of God and His divinity. This happened when the church was partially taken over by semi-heretical bishops with the help of the Arian emperors. St. Gregory of Nazianzus wrote that he decided never to participate in a synod of bishops because they only brought ambiguity and confusion. These are the words of a Doctor of the Church.
We also had another false synod in the 18th century, the so-called Synod of Pistoia in Italy, where the bishop and clergy attempted to change the doctrine, discipline, and liturgy of the church in a Protestant-style manner. Some of these decisions appeared again during and after the Second Vatican Council. Pope Pius VI condemned the propositions of the Synod of Pistoia, saying that a synod is not meant to confuse doctrine. The glory of a synod in the Catholic Church is to defend and proclaim with the greatest clarity the unchanging doctrine of the faith. These are the words of Pius VI in his document Auctorem Fidei, and they are valid today, Bishop.
Raymond Arroyo: I’m so glad you mentioned that, because the difference between even those heretical synods and the real thing is that it was confined to bishops, ordained people trained in the faith, and at least on the surface, understood the doctrine. Now you are welcoming in people who are not baptized, not catechized; anybody can come in. And not only are they welcome to come into the church, but they are also now being welcomed to opine and suggest changes to doctrine.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: This is completely contrary to the entire history and nature of the church. I repeat, Jesus Christ did not say to the apostles, “Go and listen to the pagans, the Gnostics, the Buddhists.” This is a perversion of the nature of the Catholic Church, and we have to reject such things.
Raymond Arroyo: Give me a sense of what you’re hearing about Cardinal Müller’s critiques. He talked about the nature of this process and how it is flawed. He also discussed the limits of papal power, that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ, but he does not have the power of Christ.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Exactly. The Pope is, as his title says, vicarius Christi. He is not Vicarius Dei, and he is not the successor of Jesus Christ. He is the successor of Peter. His title is Servus servorum Dei, servant of the servants of God. As Christ said to St. Peter, “Once you are converted, strengthen your brethren in faith.” This is the main task of the Pope: to protect the integrity of the faith, explain it clearly, and defend it. But today, Pope Francis, unfortunately, is doing and saying things contrary to strengthening the faith. He is confusing the faith, diluting it with vagueness, which is contrary to the mission of a pope and the nature of the Holy Catholic Church.
Raymond Arroyo: The pope certainly has a heavy burden, especially considering the Synod. It is his responsibility to bring clarity and correct even those close to him, perhaps his very closest collaborators. Moving on to your book: Pope Francis released his motu proprio, Guardians of the Tradition, placing restrictions on the celebration of the traditional Latin Mass worldwide. We are now seeing its implementation throughout the United States and Europe. You’ve been speaking on your book tour for The Catholic Mass. You see firsthand how these restrictions are affecting parishes and parishioners. Why do you think Guardians of the Tradition was written, and what do you make of the onerous way these restrictions are being placed on the traditional Mass?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: We have to be very honest. The motivation is increasingly clear: it is simply to destroy the traditional Catholic Mass. This is evident in all these restrictions. It is a process of discrimination, even persecution, of the venerable, millennium-old, sanctified prayer of the Holy Church, celebrated by so many saints and Popes. It is a great injustice against faithful Catholics who grew up in this liturgy since Pope John Paul II opened it in 1988. A generation has grown up with it, and now they are treated as second-class Catholics. This is discrimination, especially in a time when everything else, even the Pachamama cult, is tolerated in Rome. This will go down in the Church as a huge injustice, a hypocrisy, and a grave offense against the simple faithful.
Raymond Arroyo: Bishop Schneider, I am struck by something no one has given me a good answer for. Rome keeps claiming it is making good on the promises of Vatican II. But I thought, maybe simplistically, that there was a train of popes and churchmen working toward the full realization of Vatican II, including John Paul II and Benedict XVI, who allowed the extraordinary and ordinary forms, the old and new rites, to live side by side. That seemed to be working well. What happens when you try to erase or redefine what 35 years of pontiffs created, and say, “Oh no, here’s the real Vatican II, this is what it was really meant to be”? Doesn’t that disrupt the faithful?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Of course, it is confusing, and it is an injustice. But perhaps the reason lies in some texts of Vatican II, which contain ambiguous expressions that can be interpreted in multiple ways. In some way, this is the tragedy of Vatican II, which opened the door, even in its texts, to multiple interpretations and developments. Now, in this pontificate, the extreme liberal interpretation is adopted, and it is applied in ways that are, in my view, an abuse, because nothing in the texts of Vatican II directly allows for destroying the tradition, which is happening today.
Raymond Arroyo: There was a controversial appointment this week at the Pontifical Academy for Life. Mariana Mazzucato, a pro-abortion, atheist economist and member of the World Economic Forum, was named to the post by Archbishop Vincenzo Paglia. She will serve a five-year term. Remember, Pope Francis has praised her work in economics as non-ideological, but Mazzucato regularly comments on and shares posts supporting legalized abortion. Your Excellency, what do you make of this appointment, someone publicly hostile to the teachings of the Catholic Church now sitting on the Pontifical Academy for Life?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: We have to say honestly, it is a tragedy and a shame. First, we must have pity for Mariana, for her soul. Supporting abortion, the murder of unborn children, and disbelief puts her soul at risk for eternity. Yet, she is rewarded for her actions, and this appointment is a huge hypocrisy on the part of the Holy See and an offense to all faithful Catholics who defend unborn life and the truth of Holy Scripture. We must lament this very much.
Raymond Arroyo: Archbishop Paglia claims this is part of a fruitful dialogue between those who embrace Church teaching and those who reject it. But is the Academy for Life the place for that?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: No. It is contradictory. This is a misuse of the mission and the word “Academy for Life.” Under this pretext, any person promoting evil could be invited. Why not a racist promoting racism? We could invite him too, and he could be a member of the Pontifical Academy for Life. Racism is also an issue in life, in a sense.
Raymond Arroyo: It’s maddening. This is a very odd appointment, to say the least. I want to talk about your book, The Catholic Mass. You lay out steps people can take amid this liturgical upheaval. Share a few and why you decided to write the book now.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: The cover image of the book is a photo taken after the Second World War from a cathedral in Germany, bombed and half destroyed. In the midst of the ruins, the main altar remains, and a solemn high Mass is being celebrated with priest, deacon, and subdeacon, all turned toward the Lord. They celebrate God-centered upon Christ.
This is a very impressive picture of the situation of the Church today. In the last decades, we live amid spiritual ruins, liturgical ruins; the life of the Church is largely in chaos. Yet we must not despair. We must calmly continue, undisturbed, determined to give God honor, to put Christ at the center in the liturgy, to turn again toward Him in celebrating the Mass, and to restore the venerable, millennium-old, holy rite of the Mass of the saints, the traditional Latin Mass. These are the steps to restoring the centrality of Jesus Christ in our liturgical celebrations, in our churches, and giving Him the visible center.
Raymond Arroyo: Bishop Schneider, thank you so much for being here. The Catholic Mass: Steps to Restore the Centrality of God in the Liturgy by Bishop Athanasius Schneider, available in bookstores everywhere and online, including the EWTN catalog. Thank you.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: You are welcome, God bless you.