Paul Thies: Well, Your Excellency, thank you so much for joining me this morning. Before we begin with questions and our discussion, would you be so kind as to open us in prayer?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes. In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen.
Pater noster, qui es in caelis, sanctificetur nomen tuum. Adveniat regnum tuum. Fiat voluntas tua,sicut in caelo et in terra. Panem nostrum quotidianum da nobis hodie, et dimitte nobis debita nostra, sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris. Et ne nos inducas in tentationem, sed libera nos a malo. Amen.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen.
Paul Thies: Well, thank you so much for joining me today, and I am really looking forward to talking with you. Now, to start, you have written a new book called The Catholic Mass, Steps to Restore the Centrality of God and the Liturgy. I am currently reading it, and it is very fascinating. I am really enjoying it and getting a lot out of it. I wanted to ask, just to start us off, what prompted you to bring the book out at this time?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, it is evident that the deepest crisis concretely manifested in the life of the Church is the Holy Mass, the liturgy, the Eucharist. Let us say, this is evident and nobody can deny it. The Eucharist is the heart of the Church. When the heart of the Church is attacked and weak, then the entire body has no energy. This is the situation of Church life in our day, this deep wound in the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Eucharistic crisis.
It manifests itself first in the manner of how we approach the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist, how we understand it, and how we treat it. From the understanding of what the Holy Eucharist is, it follows the manner in which we treat it, correctly or otherwise. This also has consequences for our faith and our understanding. It is all mutually connected.
Therefore, the Holy Mass itself is the greatest treasure which Christ left to His Church and the greatest work of God in all history and all creation, the sacred work of God. Therefore, we have to speak about this again and again in our day. This was my intention in writing this book and naming it The Catholic Mass. Not only the Mass, but the Catholic Mass, because we have to understand truly the Catholic doctrine, which has always been the same regarding the Holy Mass.
Paul Thies: Excellent. It is so fascinating because, in reading the book, it helped me better articulate in my mind the difference. Obviously, it is pretty self-evident if you go to a Tridentine Mass versus a Novus Ordo Mass. You make the case that in the Tridentine Mass, we have this proper disposition of offering sacrifice to Our Lord through the priest.
Through the Novus Ordo Mass, with all due respect to our Protestant brothers and sisters, the Mass has been Protestant-sized. I cannot speak this morning. It becomes more about a table where we are sharing a meal with equals. In a sense, the focus has become much more on humanity and less on offering due reverence and thanksgiving to God.
I think the case you make is that this undercuts our faith. At least here in the United States, we see this with famous research surveys showing that Catholics, by and large, a vast majority, do not believe in the Real Presence of the Eucharist. We also see all kinds of Eucharistic sacrileges, both among the laity and, sadly, among priests.
What needs to be done to reclaim reverence for the Eucharist and the Mass? What can ordinary Catholics do if they find reverence lacking in their local parish? What can they do in the face of liturgical challenges and changes being issued from the Church hierarchy?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: It is difficult. I think first we have to examine ourselves. We have to behave reverently and respectfully during Holy Mass. Catholics who truly know what the Holy Mass is, that this is the sacrifice of the Cross truly present in sacramental form, but truly present on the altar.
Therefore, I think the gesture of kneeling is so important. These Catholics can give an example, a witness, by kneeling more during Holy Mass, especially during the Eucharistic Prayer. In the first place, we have to restate kneeling during Holy Communion, because this is one of the most holy moments in our lives, when we are so close to Our Lord and God.
Therefore, it is logical that at this moment we kneel down and make ourselves visibly small before the immense greatness of the holiness and love of Our Lord in the little Host. This would be a witness.
Sometimes we hear accusations, even from clergy, that people who kneel during Holy Communion are showing themselves as Pharisees or trying to show themselves better than others. This is completely wrong and has nothing to do with that. It is simply a need to kneel. It is my need. When I believe this is the Lord, I will not look at anyone around me. Even if there were a king or a pope, I would kneel before my Lord and God. I will kneel independently of what people say about me. That is not important. What is absolutely important is my witness and my need to show love and reverence to my Lord.
The woman in the Gospel came to the supper where Jesus was invited by the Pharisee Simon. This woman, a sinner, and we are also sinners, was not ashamed to kneel down, to kiss the feet of Our Lord, to weep, and with her tears wash His feet, then anoint them with precious oil and fragrance. She was despised by the Pharisees because of her gestures of reverence, but she did not pay attention to what they said about her.
The same happened with the children of Jerusalem and the simple people when Our Lord entered Jerusalem on Palm Sunday. They took palm branches and clothes and threw them on the street where Jesus was walking and riding as He entered the holy city of Jerusalem. They were criticized by the Pharisees, who said to Jesus, Master, forbid them to do this. Our Lord answered, No. If they do not honor me, the stones will cry out.
Therefore, we must be fearless. Of course, we must always act with dignity, not in a strange way, but in a normal way, by kneeling down. This is nothing extraordinary. It is our basic need as Catholics. All generations before us, the saints, knelt down to receive Our Lord. Our fathers, grandfathers, and forefathers all received Our Lord kneeling. There is nothing extravagant about this.
We must reintroduce this basic proclamation of our faith, even visibly, to receive Our Lord kneeling, and of course on the tongue, for greater reverence, care, and security against the falling of small particles of the Holy Host.
We must also kneel during the consecration and the Eucharistic Prayer. If this is not possible in some parishes, it would be better to go to other places where kneeling is practiced and where the Mass is celebrated reverently. It depends on the place.
Paul Thies: Yes, it seems that, given the reality of the world we live in today, more and more, this need for action and reverence has to start with the laity, particularly in Novus Ordo parishes. The laity needs to be willing, as you said, to demonstrate reverence regardless of what other people may say, to show reverence for Our Lord, and to demonstrate that this is important to us.
Let me ask you, what is driving the efforts to change the Mass? Obviously, we had the Second Vatican Council, and there were many Protestants and ecumenical ministers who weighed in on changes to the Mass to update it or get with the times. From what I am reading, it seems that where we are now is not what the Council Fathers intended and that we have gone off the rails.
We are seeing proclamations and efforts from Rome to put pressure on the Latin Mass, such as Traditionis Custodes and similar measures. What is driving these changes, and why is there so much concern to accommodate humans at the expense of pleasing God and rendering due worship to Him?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, it is a good question. First, we have to state the truth that the current Novus Ordo Mass is not what the Council Fathers of the Second Vatican Council had before their eyes. When one carefully reads the debates during the Council, which are documented, there is nothing about celebrating with the people, introducing new Eucharistic prayers, changing the offertory, giving Holy Communion standing in the hand, or using lay Eucharistic ministers. Nothing of this appears.
Even the text itself of the Constitution on the Liturgy is very careful and states the principle that we have to stress being oriented toward the heavenly liturgy, toward God, and toward sacredness. In numbers two and eight of this Constitution, this aspect of the holy liturgy is emphasized. There is also an important section, number twenty-three, which states that there should not be novelties in the liturgy. Innovation should not be introduced. If there are innovations, they must develop organically from previous forms and only under the condition that it is proven they will bring a sure benefit to the Church.
You see how carefully the Council formulated this principle. The Order of Mass we have now does not correspond to these principles of the Second Vatican Council. We must also remember that the true Vatican II Mass was that of 1965. In January and March of 1965, the Holy See published a revised Order of Mass according to the norms of the Council. It was very careful and basically the same Latin Mass, with the exception that Psalm forty-two at the beginning and the Last Gospel were omitted. This was not revolutionary, because even before the Council, during the last two weeks of Lent and in Requiem Masses, Psalm forty-two was not used.
What was truly new was the limited use of the vernacular language. In 1965, the vernacular was permitted up to the Preface. From the Preface through the Eucharistic Prayer, Latin remained obligatory throughout the world. The Canon was also prayed silently by the priest. This Vatican II Mass of 1965 was very moderate and carefully reformed. The Council Fathers themselves celebrated this Mass when they returned for the last session in the fall of 1965, and they found it appropriate and not revolutionary.
Unfortunately, four years later, in 1969, the Holy See presented a completely renewed Order of Mass, which was truly revolutionary and a rupture from the prescriptions of the Second Vatican Council. This stood in contrast to the reform already completed in 1965, which was itself the authentic reform of Vatican II. The 1969 Mass, which is the Mass we have today, the so-called Novus Ordo, represents a rupture and does not conform to the indications of the Council or to what the Fathers debated during it.
It was a revolution in a Protestantizing form. We must strive to reintroduce the forms of tradition that were lost and that the Council never demanded to abolish, such as Communion kneeling on the tongue, celebration oriented toward God, toward the East, returning to a single Eucharistic Prayer, the Roman Canon, throughout the Church, and allowing the prayers at the beginning, including Psalm forty two, and the Last Gospel.
In my opinion, this would truly correspond to Vatican II without rupturing the tradition of nearly one thousand years. It is wrong to speak of a Tridentine Mass as if it originated in the sixteenth century. The Order of Mass already existed in its details by the thirteenth century. After the Council of Trent, the Pope did not change the Mass but imposed the Roman Rite, which was the most ancient and authentic, upon the entire Western Church, obliging dioceses to observe it carefully. The Council of Trent did not invent or revolutionize the Mass.
Paul Thies: In my experience, at least here in the United States, this seems like a relatively recent phenomenon. Admittedly, for much of my life, I had not paid close attention to the details of the Mass, especially regarding changes or understanding why they matter. I humbly admit that I am fairly new to understanding why these things are as important as they are.
I suspect my experience is not universal, but at least among the laity in the United States, it may be common. There are, of course, exceptions, people who pay very close attention. However, it seems that interest in understanding why the current Novus Ordo Mass is deficient in many ways, and why we need to turn more toward a purer Latin Mass, is growing.
This next question is really for the laity. How will the laity know? What are some of the signs by which people would know that a Mass may be rendered supernaturally invalid due to liturgical changes or abuses? I suspect many people are simply going to church, seeing changes happen, and not realizing that certain actions could render the Eucharistic consecration invalid, meaning they are not actually receiving Our Lord, or that heretical teachings are being imposed upon them. How will the laity know? How can we tell?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: First, there is what is called the sense of faith, which is given by God to Catholics through the Sacrament of Baptism and especially Confirmation. There is a supernatural instinct to recognize what is truly Catholic and what is not.
Regarding your concrete question about the validity of the consecration, this depends on the priest and the concrete situation. Usually, we can assume that the consecration is valid, because God, in His greatness, gives the sacrament for the sake of the faithful, not primarily for the priest himself. Divine Providence works in such a way that it is more probable that the consecration is valid, because Our Lord desires to come to His faithful sacramentally and to visit their bodies and souls with His presence.
Concretely, the priest must use true wheat bread and true wine. This is the material condition. The second condition is that he pronounces the words of consecration as written in the Missal, even when they are spoken in the vernacular. When these conditions are fulfilled, we can assume the consecration is valid.
There is also the requirement of the priest’s intention to do what the Church does. In a general sense, when a priest celebrates Mass, he must intend to do what the Church intends, namely, to consecrate the Eucharist validly. When a priest pronounces the words correctly, we can assume this intention is present.
If a priest substantially changes the words of consecration, then the validity becomes doubtful, depending on what is changed. The essential words are, This is my Body. When priests begin changing the words, it is better not to attend such Masses. Such worship is subjective and self-directed and does not please God. We should not participate in actions that are not pleasing to God.
It is better to travel to another church where the priest faithfully observes the liturgy of the Church, or to attend a Latin Mass if possible. This depends on where one lives, but by doing so, God will give more graces, and one will not cooperate by one’s presence in actions that are unworthy and not pleasing to God.
Paul Thies: This next question takes a larger view and concerns the discord we are seeing in the Church, particularly among our shepherds and the differing philosophies that seem to be in conflict. Next year marks the fiftieth anniversary of Our Lady of Akita. Among her messages, it was reported that she said the work of the devil would infiltrate even into the Church, in such a way that cardinals would oppose cardinals and bishops would oppose bishops. She said that the priests who venerate her would be scorned and opposed by their confreres, that churches and altars would be sacked, that the Church would be full of those who accept compromises, and that the demon would press many priests and consecrated souls to leave the service of the Lord.
The question, returning to the humble, ordinary lay person who may not have a sophisticated or deep understanding of Catholic theology or canon law, is how the laity can tell the difference between false teaching and truth, especially when clergy and hierarchy often do not agree with one another.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: The words we have heard from the messages of Akita are very prophetic. We can state that today, bishops are against bishops and cardinals are against cardinals. There is tremendous confusion in the faith, similar to what occurred in the fourth century during the Arian heresy, when bishops opposed bishops. At that time, Pope Liberius was weak, and there was no clear point of authority, which led to confusion among the bishops. Only a small number remained faithful and uncompromising, especially Athanasius, Hilary, Basil, Gregory Nazianzen, and a small group of bishops.
Today, we face tremendous confusion among bishops and cardinals on basic questions of the faith. What is regrettable is that the Pope is not fulfilling his primary task of clarifying doctrine and strengthening the bishops in the true faith, as Our Lord commanded him, so that he would be a point of unity and clarity. We must pray that he may receive the strength and illumination of God to proclaim the Catholic faith unambiguously and without compromise, and to oblige bishops and cardinals to accept this faith, which is the faith of all times, the Apostolic faith.
For the laity, I recommend studying and reading good catechisms. For English-speaking Catholics, the Baltimore Catechism is especially recommended. There is also the Spirago Catechism, written by an Austrian priest about one hundred years ago, which is excellent and available in English. There is an ongoing project from Sophia Press in the United States called Tradivox, which republishes old catechisms. I encourage the laity to study these catechisms because they present the faith clearly and without ambiguity, which is especially necessary today.
I also recommend reading the lives of the saints and the biographies of martyrs.
Paul Thies: Excellent advice. You do not have to look very far, for example, at the state of the Church in Germany and what is being proposed there, along with the commentary it is generating regarding attempts to alter Catholic teaching.
My last question is for young priests and seminarians, who are obviously the future of the clergy. It has often been said that without priests, there is no Eucharist. We want to ensure that good and holy men are formed who are faithful and strong. What advice do you have for young priests and seminarians living in this age, and how can they remain strong and faithful despite ecclesial pressures and the growing hostility of a world that opposes authentic Catholic teaching?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: I would recommend that young seminarians and priests first thank Our Lord for the privilege of living in such a difficult time, because this is a time to be confessors of the faith, like the great saints. You must look toward eternity, not only toward this short time on earth. When God placed you in this time, it was His wisdom and Providence from all eternity. He wanted you, dear seminarian and dear young priest, to be born in this time.
It is a difficult time, and to be a good Catholic priest under such circumstances, even when you are marginalized by your own bishop, is an honor and a privilege. It is a privilege to be a confessor of the faith with humility, without revolt. Be humble and reverent toward the bishop and the Pope, but be a one-hundred-percent Catholic priest, faithful to one-hundred-percent Catholic doctrine.
You should read the good old dogmatic manuals and the beautiful, clear encyclicals of the popes, especially those written before the Second Vatican Council. You can also read good documents written after the Council, such as the encyclical on morality by John Paul II, Veritatis Splendor, and the encyclicals on human life, Humanae Vitae and Evangelium Vitae. On the Eucharist, John Paul II also left us a beautiful and doctrinally clear encyclical, Ecclesia de Eucharistia.
It would be very helpful to study the encyclicals of the popes from the last one hundred years on the Church and the faith. I also recommend reading the lives of holy priests and their biographies.
Above all, be humble and do what you can in your situation. Promote reverence and holiness. Dear seminarians, your first task, your greatest aspiration and ambition, must be to strive for a holy life. Everything else is secondary. When you strive for holiness, you will be a happy priest.
Pray daily to the Holy Spirit for wisdom, fortitude, and strength. Wherever you are, endeavor to preserve and transmit holiness, sacredness, reverence, and the true Catholic faith. This is a beautiful vocation in a difficult time, and God will help you and bless you with many fruits.
Paul Thies: Excellent. Your Excellency, thank you so much for joining me today, for answering my questions, and for discussing the current dynamics in the Church. From here, we can continue working to restore even greater reverence in the Holy Mass.
I encourage everyone, if you can, to obtain a copy of His Excellency’s new book, The Catholic Mass, Steps to Restore the Centrality of God in the Liturgy. Your Excellency, if you would, would you mind imparting a blessing on all of our listeners as we close today?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes. Let us greet Our Lady at the end of this Paschal time, and may we be filled with deep joy in Our Lord and in our Catholic faith.
Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum. Benedicta tu in mulieribus, et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Jesus. Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen.
Dominus vobiscum. Et cum spiritu tuo. Amen. Praise be Jesus Christ.
Paul Thies: Amen. Thank you. Thank you, Your Excellency.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: You are welcome.