Mia Barhouche: We are glad to have with us today His Excellency, Bishop Athanasius Schneider, who is visiting us in Lebanon for the second time. Welcome, Your Excellency.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Thank you very much for your invitation.
Mia Barhouche: Can you tell us briefly what the purpose of your coming here?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Well, I was invited by the Marian Movement of Priests in Lebanon, and this movement is spreading mainly the Message of Our Lady of Fatima, the prayer of the Rosary, the sanctification of the families, these prayer groups, cenacles, and also to do reparations on the First Saturdays of the month, all these very valuable spiritual helps which we have. I am encouraging these good priests, this movement, and the laypeople and the families to continue to live the Message of Our Lady of Fatima.
I would also like to add that the bishop who ordained me priest in Brazil, Bishop Manuel Pastana, was also a member of this Marian priestly movement. Bishop Manuel Pastana was a very courageous, saintly bishop. He is deceased. He died in Brazil in very difficult times, when the theology of liberation was reigning within the Church, which was basically a socialist-communist movement, abusing the Church structures to promote a completely materialistic view and style of life. In any case, this good Brazilian bishop had great merit for defending the Church and the true faith against this infiltration of the theology of liberation. Therefore, he was once called the Athanasius of Brazil, which means the defender of faith.
Now I am here in Lebanon. I came from Kazakhstan myself. I was born in Kyrgyzstan, in the same region as Kazakhstan, to German parents who were deported by Stalin after the Second World War to forced labor in the Ural Mountains. My parents were very active in the underground Church during the persecution of the Church by the communist government in the Soviet Union. They gave my siblings the Catholic faith, I would say, with mother’s milk. I had the privilege to grow up in my childhood and early adolescence in the underground Church. This gave me a lifelong mark of fidelity to the truth of the Catholic faith and the example of the saintly priests who were there, some of whom were martyrs and confessors of faith. They left a profound influence and mark on my soul, and for this, I am so grateful to divine providence.
Now I am, since 20 years, back in Central Asia, trying to continue spreading the Gospel. We are a very small community in Kazakhstan, only 0.5% of the population is Catholic, amidst a majority of Muslims, around 70%, and there is a considerable presence of Orthodox Christians, Russians, about 20%. We try to maintain mutual respect, but without any confusion or syncretism, to keep our identity in the Catholic faith, because the Catholic faith is the only true religion that God wants. There is no other religion pleasing to God, only the Catholic faith.
Mia Barhouche: Only one. Let’s begin. But the first question: your book. You recently published a book, The Catholic Mass. It was also in French.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Italian, and now in Polish. This year, it will also be published in German.
Mia Barhouche: First of all, can you explain why you chose the cover picture? And second, what made you publish this book, The Catholic Mass, at this time?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: I chose the cover image. It is a historical photo of a cathedral in Germany, in a town called Münster, in northwest Germany, after the Second World War, after the bombing of the church. You can see in the picture that part of the sanctuary is destroyed, but the main altar remained intact. A celebration of a Solemn Mass is taking place, not a simple Mass, a low Mass, but a solemn Mass, with a priest, deacon, and subdeacon standing together, looking in the same direction, towards God, towards the tabernacle and the cross on the altar. Amidst the ruins, they are undisturbed, solemnly adoring and worshiping the Lord. This is an example for us. For all times, the Church must always be oriented towards the Lord, always giving Him the first place in life and in the liturgy. I chose this image because, in the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church, we have a situation of ruins. The liturgy in the Roman Rite is in anarchy. It is all about man, and the Lord is put aside; man makes himself the center, a closed circle during the celebration of the Mass, as if the Lord is not the main figure. Therefore, we have to stress the centrality of the Lord.
Your second question, why I wrote this book: it was actually not my intention to publish it. Maestro Aurelio Porfiri, a musician in Rome and a devout Catholic, proposed that I write a book about the Holy Mass. I added other items and quotations from the Church Fathers and good theologians, and I titled it not simply The Mass, but The Catholic Mass. We have to celebrate and participate in the Holy Mass in a Catholic manner. Catholic manner means as in all times, everywhere, by all generations. God was worshiped in this reverent, sacred, sublime manner. This has always characterized Catholic worship, from the apostles through all generations, and even in apostolic times, the Church never admitted minimalism or anthropocentrism in divine worship. Therefore, I titled it The Catholic Mass, with the subtitle Steps to Restore the Centrality of God in the Liturgy. We first have to restore the centrality of God in the liturgy, and then, from the liturgy, restore the centrality of God in the entire life of the Church and all other manifestations.
Mia Barhouche: This cover picture is very descriptive of the situation of the Church right now. Exactly, really, we are living in ruins, but we are still staying in the Church, in our Mother Church. Meanwhile, we see some disturbance or controversy with the guardian of the traditions, Traditiones Custodes. Do I pronounce it correctly?
Well, okay. This is worrying us because it was written by Pope Francis, this motu proprio, and it places restrictions on the celebration of the traditional Latin Mass worldwide. How do these restrictions affect the parishioners now? Are traditional Christians now treated as second-class Christians? What are your thoughts about this?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, this is a very sad phenomenon and reality that Pope Francis published this motu proprio, this document titled Traditiones Custodes, which basically aims to limit the old, reverent form of the celebration of the Holy Mass according to the Roman Rite. This form was kept for at least 1000 years, not 50 years, not even since the Council of Trent. Therefore, it is not correct to say the Tridentine Mass. It is the Mass of all ages, basically, because the Tridentine Council did not ask the Pope to reform the Mass. The council asked the Pope to put an end to the anarchy and abuses which were, at that time, spreading in the Church, creating ethical chaos. Therefore, the council fathers proposed to the Pope that he impose the old, unchanged Roman Rite on the entire Latin Church.
You see the difference with Vatican II. Vatican II proposed concrete reforms, but this council did not propose a reform. I repeat, it asked the Pope to impose the traditional Roman Rite on the entire Latin Church. Therefore, to now restrict it and discriminate against this millennium-old Mass, I repeat, not the Tridentine Mass, but a millennium-old Mass, Pope Francis committed a grave abuse of his power. By his own words in a companion letter, he effectively aims to abolish this right, to make it disappear in the Church. This is an abuse. The Pope cannot do this, just as he cannot change a very old formula of the Creed, the Apostolic Creed, which is centuries old.
The Pope cannot change the formula or the rite of the traditional Roman Mass because it has been used for such a long time by so many popes and saints, producing countless spiritual fruits. I hope that the next Pope will restore the traditional rite in its honor and with the same rights as the new rite, to end the discrimination against devout Catholics who are attached to the Mass of the saints and their forefathers. Ending this discrimination is crucial. Treating these Catholics as second-class members will remain in history as a grave injustice by a Pope of the Holy See against faithful, devout Catholics who love the Pope and pray for him and for the bishops. They are not schismatics; they are true daughters and sons of the Church.
Mia Barhouche: Thank you for clarifying. Thank you. There is another book that you also published with Cardinal Burke and other bishops, which is an extremely important declaration of the truth, relating to some of the most common errors in the life of the Church of our time. Can you briefly tell us what this book is about?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, this book is very necessary. It is a small booklet, because we are living in the Church in a kind of epidemic, actually a pandemic, of doctrinal errors and ambiguities. The main characteristics are the spread of relativism and ambiguity in the Church, which basically transmit the message that there is no constant truth, and that truth changes over time. This is contrary to divine revelation and the Gospel.
We identified almost 40 of the most common errors that are widespread in the life of the Catholic Church. First, the basic notions of what truth, what tradition is, what development is, and so on. There are four themes: general notions of dogma, tradition, and related concepts. Then, some important points about the doctrine of faith itself, such as the uniqueness of Jesus Christ and the uniqueness of the Catholic Church. We address the wrong attitude of false ecumenism, and so on. Then the moral issues: the spreading of homosexuality, civil unions, divorce, communion for the divorced, and so on. We also address the Holy Mass, the Holy Sacraments, and the priesthood.
Mia Barhouche: Extremely important. We also hope to have it translated into Arabic. Let’s talk about the Synod on Synodality. Why? Because we, as faithful laypeople, are living in a huge anarchy. This Synod is bringing a lot of confusion, whereas it aims to defend and proclaim the unchanging doctrine of the faith. But now we see that this Synod is calling for female ordination, pushing the LGBTQ agenda, and asking laypeople who do not know theology to participate and give their opinions on the teachings of the Church. I wonder if this Synod really speaks of the will of the people of God, or if it is a game or manipulation to push a certain agenda. Pardon me.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, you are right. It is evidently a method, a game, a tool to push gender ideology, to bring more relativism and more ambiguity into the doctrine of the faith and the life of the Church, and not only to further Protestantize the Church, but worse, to adapt the Church to the mode of thinking of the unbelieving world. This is very dangerous.
First, we have to remind ourselves what a synod is, its definition, and, not only the definition, but the traditional meaning that the Church has always understood. A synod was always understood as a tool of the magisterium of the Church, of those entrusted by our Lord with the task of teaching. The teaching Church consists of the apostles and their successors, the bishops, and the Pope. This is the divine structure of the Church. There is no confusion between the teaching Church and the listening Church, which consists of the faithful who must be taught. You cannot mix this up and give tasks to laypeople to officially proclaim or teach, even under the method of participation in a synod.
We repeat: a synod is a tool of the magisterium, of the teaching office of the Church, with the concrete aim of protecting the doctrine of the Church against heresies, ambiguities, and distortions of the constant meaning of the Church. This is the first aim. The second is to explain more clearly the points of doctrine that may have been doubted or undermined. The third is to make concrete improvements against abuses in the life of the Church, to establish norms against abuses and spiritual diseases in the body of the Church, including abuses in the liturgy, the moral life of clergy, or the faithful.
These three aims are the basic tasks of a synod. Whatever now, in the process of the so-called synodal way or synodality, weakens the defense of the faith, brings ambiguity, or weakens the discipline of the Church, the clarity of a committed ascetical life of the religious or priests, the necessary penance in the Church, or the integrity and joy of living the Catholic faith, is against the divine constitution of the Church and the nature of a synod. It is a clear abuse of this Church structure.
Mia Barhouche: Sorry, just to interrupt you, but on this point, what can you say about those bishops and cardinals who are leaving the Synod? As I mentioned, Bishop Mouz from the Netherlands said God is out of the picture in the synodal process, and he left. Cardinal Müller, in an interview, I think on EWTN, said it is a hostile takeover of the Church of Jesus Christ, and it is a self-revelation. It seems we are witnessing something going wrong in this synodal process.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, it is too evident. You can already read the basic documents on the continental level of some dioceses, and now the working document of the Vatican itself. It contains a lot of ambiguities concerning the doctrine of the faith. This process is counterproductive. For a bishop, to be part of this confusing, ambiguous process is, in my opinion, not worthy.
Some may say that good bishops have to be present to soften some errors, to balance, to mitigate mistakes. But in my experience, this is not realistic. Why? Because we already saw this in the two Synods on the family in 2014 and 2015, where the final results of the Synods were basically pre-established, and the contributions of good bishops, their critiques, were largely not taken into account.
Now we know who leads the synodal structures in the Vatican. Many of them openly advocate for the LGBT movement, for the abolition of priestly celibacy, and for the female diaconate. Some bishops or staff members of the Synod have publicly expressed these opinions in the past. Therefore, we do not need to be very intelligent to know that the leadership is already in the hands of people who favor ambiguity. We have to be honest: the contribution of a bishop will not have a real effect. I consider it not worthy, as a bishop, to participate in such openly ambiguous structures and agendas that are already decided.
Therefore, I agree with, and even welcome, the courageous gesture of Bishop Robert Mozart, Auxiliary Bishop of the Diocese of Den Bosch in the Netherlands. I admire his courage. I also know of at least two other diocesan bishops who did not participate or did not allow the so-called synodal process in their dioceses, because the questions were already formulated by the Vatican in a very ambiguous manner.
We must also stress that Christ did not tell the apostles to ask opinions about faith. He said, “Go and teach, and make the people observe what I have commanded you.” The apostles did not gather laypeople to ask what they wanted; they taught. This is the basic mission of the apostles, the bishops, and the Pope.
Of course, laypeople can make contributions, but in another way. They contribute by strengthening and defending the faith in their lives as laypeople, in their families. This is the first task of transmitting and teaching the faith, established in the domestic Church of the family. The teaching task of a Catholic mother and father is beautiful: to transmit the purity and integrity of the Catholic faith with the mother’s milk to the children, and for the father to give an example. This is the first theology school, the first priestly seminary in the family.
Laypeople also have a task outside the family: to help priests teach catechism to children, young people, and adults. Here I want to thank so many committed laypeople and to express my gratitude to you, dear Mia, for your apostolate. This is the task of laypeople: to transmit the faith according to the unchanged, integral Catholic faith. Not 70%, 80%, or 90%, but 100%, according to the unchanging catechisms, the papal documents, and the crystal-clear teachings from before the Council.
Thanks be to God, we also have very good documents after the Council. I would mention Humanae Vitae, the encyclical of Pope Paul VI on the morality of human conjugal and family life, and Pope John Paul II’s excellent encyclicals, Veritatis Splendor on morality, and his teachings on the Eucharist. We must adhere to these clear teachings and transmit them. I hope that in the future there will be a clear declaration that condemns, without any ambiguity, all the main errors spread over the last 60 years in the life of the Church.
Mia Barhouche: We have had enough. I just want to ask you: do you think there can be wrong obedience, or should we always obey, because obedience now is guiding us all? What do you think?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Of course, there can be wrong obedience, because the Fathers of the Church and Thomas Aquinas wrote that there cannot be absolute obedience towards creatures. Absolute obedience is only possible towards God. Towards all creatures, let it be the Pope, the bishop, or our parents, we can only have relative obedience.
What does this mean? A relative, not absolute, obedience. Why? Because sometimes, even an ecclesiastical superior, a Pope, a bishop, or parents can give an order that is contrary to God, to God’s commandment. For example, if parents command their children to commit a sin, the children must refuse this obedience. They cannot obey; they must resist.
If a bishop asks you to give Holy Communion to public, unrepentant sinners, this is a sin. You cannot do it. This would be wrong obedience. If a bishop commands you to hand over the Lord in the Holy Eucharist to people, knowing that small fragments of the Holy Host will fall to the floor and be trampled, you cannot, as a priest, obey such a command.
Similarly, even if a Pope orders you to participate in an interreligious prayer with people who publicly reject the Holy Trinity or adore idols, such as in the Hindu religion, you cannot obey. This is against the first commandment of God and is a sin. Obeying in such a case would be wrong obedience.
When you participate in such ambiguous meetings, such as some synodal meetings, with already evident structures and aims that are ambiguous, I cannot, in good conscience, participate.
Mia Barhouche: What do you think about the push toward a new world religion? This is very concerning today.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: This is evident. Since the French Revolution, we have been witnessing a slow process of establishing a new, humanistic religion, contrary to the unique divine revelation, which is Jesus Christ. It is a movement to create a new religion of relativism, a supermarket of religions.
The main contents and objects of worship become creatures, not God. People worship nature, Mother Earth, Pachamama, or even man himself, instead of God. This is the most dangerous movement, the so-called One World Religion.
Unfortunately, sometimes I have the impression that some churchmen in high positions, even inside the Vatican, are, by words and gestures, promoting this movement toward a One World Religion, a religion of pure humanism. The Holy See, the See of Peter, should be the first to resist, and must resist, this One World Religion. This is the task of the Pope and the bishops. I hope that the Pope and the bishops will again receive from God the apostolic courage to resist this new, pagan, one-world religion.
Mia Barhouche: Thank you. Thank you. It was a burden because we are seeing now that in Abu Dhabi, the buildings are ready and everything is prepared. Unfortunately, this is being pushed from inside the Vatican. We also see many well-known bishops and priests who are not only spreading but promoting heresy and are not being punished, not being held accountable. For example, Father James Martin, a Jesuit, is publicly promoting the LGBTQ agenda.
We also have the recently exploding scandal of Father Rupnik. It is scandalous to see somebody who committed horrible crimes, even abusing the Sacrament of Penance, and yet is not suspended from the priesthood. On the other hand, someone like Father Frank Pavone, the national director of Priests for Life in the US, the largest pro-life ministry in the Church, is being canceled.
We also see Mariana Mazzucato, a pro-abortion atheist economist and member of the World Economic Forum, being appointed by the Vatican to serve five years in the Pontifical Academy for Life. This contradiction is astonishing, and I cannot understand it.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Exactly. It is too evident. We are witnessing, plainly before the eyes of the entire world, that the Holy See is using double standards. Some can be called privileged public heretics or privileged public sinners. They are treated in a special, privileged manner.
For example, Father James Martin publicly promotes the heresy of homosexuality in a very cunning way, and he is even publicly praised by the Pope. Father Rupnik committed very serious, grievous crimes against consecrated sisters and abused the Sacrament of Penance. According to canon law, the consequence should have been automatic excommunication. Nevertheless, the Vatican silenced this. Some of the crimes happened years ago, and the Vatican knew about them but did nothing. Even the excommunication was lifted very quickly, which is against the normal rules of canon law that require adequate time for reparation, scandal, and penance. He was treated in a privileged manner.
At the same time, Father Pavone was punished in the most severe manner a priest can be punished in the Church. We can reasonably ask why he was punished this way. This is a grave scandal, a serious injustice, and will go down in the history of the Church as such.
This shows that those in power in the Vatican are more inclined to show sympathy to those who promote errors and heresies. This is proven by many nominations, including two Cardinal posts. As you mentioned, Mariana Mazzucato was appointed to the Academy for Life. This is a humiliation and an offense to all the faithful who fight uncompromisingly for the defense of human life and the sanctity of marriage, to see someone publicly promoting immorality and not a Catholic vision of family placed in such a position.
Mia Barhouche: They are in the Vatican with Pope Francis, promoting clergy to high positions and pushing toward a naturalistic Church, to move us toward a new world religion.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, we can observe this very clearly. I agree with Cardinal Muller, who some months ago said in an interview that we are witnessing a hostile takeover in the Vatican by enemies of the Church. Those who oppose the constant Catholic doctrine, the uniqueness of Christ, and the uniqueness of the Catholic Church are gaining high-ranking positions and abusing our Holy Mother Church.
These high-ranking heretical cardinals, bishops, and priests reached their positions with the help of… well, history will tell us. They are essentially putting our Mother Church in chains. They are putting Christ in prison, imprisoning the truth, which is Christ. They are doing this, but they will not succeed. They forget that the Church is not human but divine. God is observing, and at a certain point, He will intervene and say, “Enough. Go away, you cardinals, bishops, and priests who abused my bride, the Church, with heretical teachings, immorality, worldly liturgy, and persecution of traditional Catholics. You abused my bride, the Holy Mother Church. Go away, and God will judge you.”
History will also judge them. God will intervene again, through the intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Our Lady, through the prayers and tears of the little ones in the Church, and through their sacrifices. This includes priests and bishops who are persecuted unjustly by the Holy See for wanting to transmit the clarity of the Catholic faith. All this will end. God will intervene. We believe this 100 percent. He will give us popes who will faithfully strengthen the Catholic faith, defend Christ’s flock from the wolves, and courageously oppose worldly powers.
These popes will come, and the little ones will be gathered. The new pope will say, “Come, my little ones who suffered. I bless you. Come, good priests, come, good bishops.” There will be a purified Church, a small army of Our Lady with the holy angels.
I would like to encourage all of you, dear Mia, your audience, my brothers here in Lebanon and around the world: be proud of your Catholic faith. Say, “I will not allow anyone to take away my Catholic faith. I will not allow anyone to confuse my Catholic faith,” even if it is the highest-ranking churchmen in the Church. I gave my vow of faith and fidelity at baptism, not to the Pope, not to the bishop, but to Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ will judge me, not the Pope, not the bishop. He will ask every Pope how they defended the Catholic faith, how they provided 100 percent Catholic bishops and cardinals, how they defended Christ’s flock from the wolves, and how they protected Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist. He will ask every priest how they lived the purity of their priesthood in doctrine, moral life, and liturgy. He will ask every parent how they transmitted the faith to their children.
We must live with a vision. We live for the truth, and we live for eternity.
Mia Barhouche: Hallelujah. As Our Lady said in Fatima, at the end, her Immaculate Heart will triumph. We are still in communion, and we will stay in communion, with the ONE HOLY CATHOLIC APOSTOLIC CHURCH. I want you to give a last word of guidance for 2023 to everyone listening.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: The most important thing here on Earth is to save your soul. The greatest law of the Church, the most important, is the salvation of souls. We must do everything we can to save our souls. We have the program in the Beatitudes, the commandments of God, and prayer. We must also work to save the souls of others, as Our Lady of Fatima asked us.
As we enter the new year, even if it brings more difficulties, we must do so with trust and courage, because we know whom we trust: the Lord. We know who the King of this world, who is the ruler of the Church, is, and we know our heavenly mother, Mary, the Mother of God, is always with us. God bless you.
Mia Barhouche: As Lebanon has been solemnly consecrated to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, let us offer our prayer to Our Lord Jesus Christ and Our Blessed Mother Mary. May this interview serve as a part of what many consider a prophecy for the Church, as in the Canticle of Canticles in the Holy Scriptures: “Come from Lebanon, my spouse, come from Lebanon.” God bless you.