Gavin Ashenden: Your Eminence, Bishop Schneider, thank you very much for coming and joining us. You’re on a very busy tour, and I want to begin by asking you if you don’t mind explaining what lies behind your catechism. Bishops sometimes produce catechisms, and this one comes at a critical point in the life of the church. I’ve heard you explain that you wrote it by invitation, by demand, the people asked for it. Bishop, why are the people asking for a catechism?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, this is an evident sign that we are living in a time of confusion regarding doctrine and morals. There was a demand from simple people, from parents and families, fathers and mothers, who were asking me to write a catechism with clear answers, also regarding some issues typical of our time, which are confusing. For me, this is a revealing sign that we are living in a time of great confusion, even within the church. Therefore, I considered it one of my first duties as a bishop to transmit the true Catholic faith in its integrity and clarity. I made this oath in my Episcopal consecration, as every Catholic bishop does during consecration. He promises, I promise to transmit the deposit of faith integrally and faithfully as it was handed down to me and as the church has always taught in all times. When I heard the voices of people asking me, I was reminded of this oath of my Episcopal consecration. I accepted this request and did it with joy to fulfill my duty as bishop.
Gavin Ashenden: We both know that the age we live in is a time of confusion. Any age that can philosophically give rise to something so problematic as postmodernity and this effusion of relativism is going to be an age of confusion. We expect that in the world, but we don’t expect it in the church. Can you give us some understanding of why the church is finding itself mirroring something of the world in its own confusion? There are clearly theological, psychological and spiritual reasons, but for a lot of people it’s not what they expect of the Catholic Church.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Exactly. We already have a warning from St Paul the Apostle, and I think this warning must remain for all times, very important and still a living voice. Namely, St Paul wrote in his letter to the Romans to the Christians of that time, and inclusively to all pastors and faithful: do not conform yourself to the world, in Latin non conformamini Spiritu. This warning, do not conform yourself to the thinking of this world, is exactly the reason that in our day, in the last decades, even those in responsibility in the church did not take this apostolic warning seriously and tried to adapt in some points the truth of the gospel to the spirit of our age, which is basically the spirit of relativism, denial of constant truth itself, and the spirit of naturalism, a kind of denial of the supernatural world and Revelation itself.
All this goes together with an attitude we can call anthropocentrism, making human thinking the center and the measure of all without subjecting it to God, the revealing God who revealed Himself in Jesus Christ and in the teaching which the church has kept through the ages. This is an omission on the part of those in responsibility and authority in the church. They were not vigilant enough to protect the church from this infiltration of relativism, anthropocentrism, and naturalism. Or worse, they themselves became propagators of this spirit in the life of the church and among the faithful. Those who truly want to believe in Jesus Christ and love the faith feel this is not the voice of Christ. Jesus Christ said about the good shepherds, the sheep know the voice of the Good Shepherd and the voice of the false shepherds. The faithful will not listen or follow. Those faithful who still keep this profound sense of faith.
Gavin Ashenden: I want to ask you a question about the Second Vatican Council, and it’s not a trick question; it’s a sincere question, but I’m aware that the council has become a totem for both sides. When I was an Anglican theologian looking at the Second Vatican Council, I remember thinking this was a good step forward because the Catholic Church was becoming more like the world and more like the Protestant tradition. There seemed to be a greater rapprochement between us. Having seen both the world collapse and the Protestant churches collapse, it then began to be a question for me whether that rapprochement was a good thing. Having become a Catholic from the inside, one of the ways I have tried to understand the council is to ask whether the council fathers knew what they were doing when they tried to build a bridge of rapprochement to the world.
The world that you and I grew up in looked dangerous, but not lethal. As we have grown older, that dangerousness has become lethal. I certainly underestimated the forces of secularism, both ideological and spiritual. Would it be fair to say there was an act of underestimation within the Second Vatican Council, which was, of course, a very mixed matter? Nonetheless, the relativist proponents seem to see it as a viable operation that would cause only good, while many of the faithful see it as a hostage to secular fortune. Both perspectives are true at the same time, but can you offer some interpretation of how the faithful look at this issue, which we are often invited to think of as either continuity or rupture, in order to find intellectual or theological coherence?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, I agree with you. It is partly an underestimation of the true spirit of this world. Sixty years ago, the council fathers underestimated the spirit of relativism and naturalism. I think they were also partly naive. Another cause, I would say, is a kind of complex of inferiority towards the world. You can observe this in some statements and behaviors of council fathers, particularly those who were influential, seeking to be applauded by the world or to gain sympathy even from the world. This is not the authentic attitude of the apostles of Jesus Christ or of the church, which has always lived and behaved through the centuries.
Of course, we should invite those who are not believers and propose to them, in an inviting and clear manner, the truth of Christ and the gospel, but without ambiguity. I think this was the methodological error of many affirmations of the council. Their basic approach was to invite the world by speaking in ambiguous language, probably to gain favor with those in the world. This is an error because a true seeker, even outside the church, wants clarity in their search for truth. We can propose the truth with love but with clarity. This methodological error caused many consequences and developments since the council in areas such as liturgy and pastoral practice, creating ambiguity and avoiding clarity. Christ is himself the clear truth, and the truth sets us free and gives us joy. For example, no one will give their life for ambiguity. The first Christians, the apostles, and all the martyrs acted for clarity and truth. England is famous for its Confessors and martyrs like St Thomas More, who yielded to nothing ambiguous, and John Fisher, as well as other martyrs from other countries. Therefore, the method of Vatican II basically did not work because of the consequences we have seen.
Gavin Ashenden: For many of us who have converted and become Catholics, it is because we discovered that our views about sex were secularized and mistaken. Through much of my lifetime, my culture looked at the Catholic Church and thought You are too rigid, you are too dogmatic about sex. But now with the addiction to sex in our culture, and also the extraordinary way identity politics uses sexual desire to offer some form of anthropological labeling to humankind, it almost seems that only the Catholic Church has had the discipline and resources to confront this very powerful force. Yet, just at the moment when we need the clarity of the Catholic Church’s understanding about sexual desire and sexual identity, ambiguity seems to have been released.
My question is, having read Instrumentum Laboris and seen that it was couched in the language of the psychotherapist’s discipline, I wondered why it chose to clothe itself in that philosophical structure. I thought everything was lost. But then recently, in the last couple of weeks, the German Bishops received a strong letter saying that the ethics of homosexual attraction remain in place. As John Paul II said, the demands of feminism will not be met. I was very surprised to read that letter because it seemed out of the trajectory. Are there other voices in Rome, different theological power structures? Is the incoherence a sign of internal theological debate within the Vatican, or is there another explanation? It is difficult to reconcile these two things.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, I am very thankful for this letter from the Secretariat of State. It is a sign that the Holy See is still in some way in the hands of God and not only subject to the hostile takeover that occurred to some extent. The Holy See is, in a sense, a victim of a hostile takeover. These are the words of Cardinal Mueller, who lives in Rome, and I agree. Anti-Christian forces want to completely adapt the Catholic faith, morals, and life to this modern world, which has no values. They hold some power and responsibilities in the Vatican and manage to occupy these positions. Unfortunately, Pope Francis allows them or even appoints them to such positions, people who are evidently not truly Catholic, thinking they are promoting disambiguity, even heresy.
At the same time, there are still cardinals and bishops in Rome who are concerned and want to preserve the mission of the See of Peter, which has always been called the Cathedra Veritatis. This is the seed of truth, the mission of Peter and his successor, and it will endure. Currently, it is partly eclipsed, but this will pass. The faithful, the simple faithful, will strengthen those in authority in the church, the fidelity of the little ones in the church. This is a beautiful sign that the church is divine, that we are one body, and the church is ultimately indestructible. It suffers attacks and troubles, but this will pass. We must stick to the truth, which we know from the good catechisms. I presented a catechism that preserves the voice of all time, and this will help the faithful adhere to the faith of the apostles, the saints, which alone will endure.
Gavin Ashenden: Bishop Fulton Sheen prophesied quite accurately that the church would reach a point when it needed the faithful laity to remind priests how to be priests, and bishops how to be bishops. The publication of your Credo is an example of that mutual dependence he described. It is interesting that you speak so forthrightly about a coup inside the Vatican, as does Cardinal Mueller. Are you finding support from other bishops? Clearly, if there is a coup, it is like any normal power struggle, which happens at work, in families, in politics, and of course in the church. We have the Holy Spirit and the promises of Jesus to rely on, but pragmatically, are other bishops supporting you in this time of ambiguity and crisis?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, thanks be to God. There are bishops who share the same concern and attitude towards the truth of the Catholic faith. I know them, but the majority live under intimidation. We have seen the situation of Bishop Strickland from Tyler, Texas, who spoke openly and was removed. We are living in a time when bishops are intimidated from speaking openly and boldly defending the Catholic truth. Nonetheless, many bishops still uphold the truth of the Catholic faith. Some work silently to protect their dioceses and wait for the situation in the Vatican to improve, trusting that God will provide leadership in the Holy See and popes who will courageously transmit and defend the Catholic faith. This will happen because the church is in the hands of God.
Gavin Ashenden: This is very encouraging, and thank you for putting it so clearly. You said earlier that nobody will die for ambiguity. It is strange that a spirit of ambiguity and even chaos is to be found in the Vatican as part of this coup. This is a theological and psychological question. We know the spiritual answer, but sometimes we divide things into categories to get a clearer handle on them. Regarding the next Consistory, it would seem extraordinarily foolish to elect a pope who continued the present trajectory of the coup, because people do not die for ambiguity. They do not flourish with chaos. They sacrifice themselves for the truth, for the living Christ. Anyone who cares for the church, even as an institution, faithful to its mission, would, as a matter of common sense, try to elect a pope who exemplifies the strongest aspects of the faith. Is it psychologically likely that the cardinals in the voting conclave will be blind to what is obvious to most people, or do you think, psychologically, theologically, or politically, they have yet to see the consequences of this papacy work out?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: I think even cardinals who are not traditionally minded would prefer a pope with more clarity. In this pontificate, there have been situations of non-observance of basic norms of canon law, such as bishops or cardinals being removed or other people affected without process or canonical procedure. This is a serious issue. Even cardinals who are not traditional would want a pope who at least observes the rules and procedures of canon law authentically, and also a pope who is clear in doctrine. We hope the Lord will guide the church in electing the next pope. We must already pray to implore this gift from God, that he will give us a pope who is clear, observant of canon law, paternal and fraternal to the bishops, avoiding ambiguity and absolutistic governance. This is an important issue the cardinals will consider in the next conclave.
Gavin Ashenden: Let us hope this podcast reaches the cardinals so they hear your advice directly as part of their preparation. Can I ask before you go, since you have a full program tonight and have been visiting England and now Ireland, what has been your impression of the people you meet, the faithful who come to listen to you?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: I have been to several places in England and seen simple people, young people, students, families, all longing for clarity of truth, for the beauty of the liturgy, and for true Christian life. They seek authentic Catholicism. I see the same situation all over the world, where I visit other countries. This is, for me, an encouraging sign that the Holy Spirit is guiding the church, and the Sensus fidei, the instinct of the faithful, remains a gift of God. The Lord preserves this in the people, especially the young, and this gives hope for true renewal of the church through a new generation of priests, families, and hopefully new popes.
Gavin Ashenden: Bishop Schneider, thank you so much for your Episcopal ministry and for all that you do. We hold you in our prayers. Thank you particularly for making time to have this conversation with us. God bless you.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: God bless you also.