John Yep: Good afternoon, everyone. It is a special edition today for Catholic Champion on this feast of All Hallows Eve, tomorrow’s All Saints Day, and I have a Catholic Champion with us today, Archbishop Athanasius Snyder. You’re going to want to stay tuned for this special interview. Good afternoon, everyone. Archbishop, what a pleasure and honor to be with you in person. I’ve followed your work for a long time now. You really are a gift to the universal church. I’m sure you would agree with this, that in times of crisis God raises up men and women to respond to the call of their own particular vocation to speak up. Catholics around the world, as an American Catholic, you probably hear this all the time, but we have been so grateful and appreciative of your resolve to continue preaching the gospel during these unique times in church history. Thanks for staying up late. I know it’s late over there, right, Archbishop?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: So first, maybe I’m not an archbishop, but an auxiliary Bishop.
John Yep: Auxiliary Bishop, I’m sorry, okay. Auxiliary Bishop. Well, Bishop, you’re staying up late over there, are you? Thank you for doing this. Typically, but I think it reflects your passion to get this message out. You have a message for us today. You have a new book coming out, No Greater Love, on the topic of martyrdom, which we’re going to get into in a second. But before we get into the book, I want everyone to get this book. People have to know who wrote this book.
Obviously, it’s yourself and your story. Your parents were right there in the middle of the Soviet persecution right after the Second World War, which is ironic because my own ancestors, Bishop, also came from Poland. One of my members was actually sent to Auschwitz after trying to help save the Jews and was killed there. Right around that time, my family immigrated from Poland to the United States. So I’m also very familiar with that. Tell us a little bit about your childhood and why you have such a strong resolve to defend the faith.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: I consider it one of the greatest gifts of God in my life that I could live my childhood in the underground church, in the persecuted church in the Soviet Union. Especially my parents transmitted the Catholic faith to me and my siblings, my mother, as it were, with her mother’s milk. They were also activists in the underground church, first in the Ural Mountains, where there was a close-to-martyr priest, Father Alexei Zaritsky, blessed. He was there frequently in the Ural Mountains secretly, organizing the underground church even with many dangers, including the danger of life, prison, or gulags. This holy priest and martyr did this with such commitment and love, really an apostle of our days. My parents witnessed his life and words.
Later, we lived in Kyrgyzstan in Central Asia, where I was born, and my parents helped organize secret prayers and Masses there. I grew up in this environment, and later we moved to Estonia, where there was an officially open church allowed by the government, but very much controlled by the Secret Service. Nevertheless, we could travel 100 kilometers, which was close for us, because in Kyrgyzstan and the Ural Mountains, priests were very rare. In Estonia, we also had a holy confessor priest who had suffered in the Gulag camps in Kazakhstan and was then freed, Father Yanis Pavlovsky from Latvia. He heard my first confession and gave me my first Holy Communion there in Estonia, and he marked me all my life with his holiness and courage as a confessor. This is a summary of my experience in the underground church.
John Yep: You dropped a piece of information people may have missed. You were unable to attend Mass; it was very hard. Your family traveled almost 60 miles at times to go to church. You said Father Olesky Zaritsky was organizing these clandestine Masses. He is a blessing. Your family traveled all this distance to attend Mass with a future saint of the Catholic Church. He is blessed now, and canonization is probably imminent.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, Father Alexei Zaritsky died as a martyr in 1963 in Kazakhstan. My parents organized secret Masses in the Ural Mountains, where they were deported for forced labor. Later, he came to Kyrgyzstan. From Estonia, we traveled 60 miles to another priest, Father Yanis Pavlovsky. He is not yet beatified, but he died as a confessor of the faith and suffered many years in Stalin’s gulags. These are two different priests.
John Yep: Just that fact alone, the direct connection you had with these holy men. For non-Catholics watching, it illustrates the role of saints in the Catholic Church. Often, we know them personally. They inspire us. Look at who you are today, Bishop, and you can trace that lineage back to these priests who risked so much to give us the faith. You’re continuing that tradition. What was it like to know these men and know they are now in heaven?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: This must inspire us today to continue being faithful to the faith of our fathers. Father Alexei Zaritsky frequently repeated, “Remain faithful to the faith of your forefathers,” the integral Catholic faith. This is timely because in our day of confusion, even within the church, we must remain faithful to the immutable faith of our forefathers, the saints, and the martyrs.
John Yep: Through this interview, we are connecting with these priests, Father Olesky and others. It brings home their message, “Remain faithful to the faith of your forefathers.” It rings true. What prompted you to write the book about martyrdom, No Greater Love? What inspired you, and what is the main message for Catholics worldwide?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: It was not my idea. I was asked to write a book on martyrdom, so I did.
John Yep: Can I ask who asked you to write it?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: It was the publisher, Ten Books. It is now published, and it was a joy for me to share the very important topic of martyrdom, because today it is timely. We face hostility from the surrounding world, which is hostile to the Catholic Church. We see this every day in the news, on social media, and in laws. We must be prepared to be marginalized, maybe not killed as in the martyrdom of blood, but marginalized in society. This is already visible in the so-called free world, in Europe. In some countries, defending God’s commandments, like the sixth commandment and God’s creation of marriage as male and female, can lead to punishment.
Saying that homosexual activity is against natural law can result in accusations of hate speech. You can be labeled an enemy of society, an enemy of the people. This reminds me of the Soviet Union, where criticizing the regime labeled you as an enemy of the people. Now we see similar persecution in the liberal Western world. For example, a former government minister in Finland, a Protestant, quoted scripture condemning homosexual acts and was accused, having gone through several court processes, with appeals ongoing.
Martyrdom today can also consist of persecution, humiliation, and punishment for defending God’s law. In my book, I present examples of martyrs. The source of all martyrdom is our Lord Jesus Christ, His sacrifice on the cross. The sacrifice of our Lord shows us the nature of martyrdom, the supreme act of love, giving all of your life out of love for God and truth, witnessing to the truth, and remaining faithful until death. Our Lord did this out of love for the Father and all humanity, sacrificing His blood as the supreme witness of truth and love. In any martyrdom, the witness of love and truth is inseparable.
John Yep: Bishop, that woman from Finland has really inspired a lot of us here in the United States, the fact that she was just quoting the Bible and now faces court cases, as you mentioned. There are these modern-day witnesses, even if they’re not necessarily Catholic, who give testimony, literally a form of martyrdom, whether white martyrdom or blood martyrdom.
I’m sure you’re familiar with the case of Charlie Kirk, right? He was a good friend of mine here in Phoenix. We lived just a few blocks away from each other. Seeing what he did with his witness, even though he didn’t die a Catholic, was remarkable. He was very close; he was starting to attend daily Mass. I remember the Archbishop or the Bishop trading text messages with him specifically about martyrdom.
There was a mutual understanding that to do the work he was doing, challenging the LGBT agenda, abortion, and other hot-button issues, he knew it could result in what happened on September 10. Even what Candace shared the other day, that Charlie had always said he might not live long, he frequently said, “I will die young.” He understood the risk.
So, Bishop, is it fair to say that people outside our faith who die in a holy way, how would the Church describe that? Could that be classified as a kind of martyrdom?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, I think so. Charlie Kirk was evidently killed out of hatred against Christ and God’s commandments. He defended the uniqueness of Jesus Christ, frequently stressing that He is the only Savior. He also defended God’s commandments: against abortion, against the homosexual agenda, for family and marriage according to God’s law.
He consciously defended life, marriage, and the order of sexuality, even knowing he could be killed for it. In the eyes of God, he is a martyr, but he cannot be canonized in the Catholic Church because that would relativize the uniqueness of the truth of the Catholic faith, as he was Protestant.
Nevertheless, Catholics can express esteem for him, present him as an example, and pray that God awakens in the Church more courageous men like him, good husbands and fathers, willing to stand for truth.
John Yep: I’m so glad you said that, Bishop. Charlie would probably want me to share that. One thing that held him back from converting to Catholicism at times was looking at examples of not just Catholic clergy, but men who had given their lives to God yet remained silent as the world went to pieces. That drove him nuts. Why weren’t they speaking up? Conversely, seeing someone like yourself speak up against these cultural issues inspired him.
I first discovered you when the Abu Dhabi document came out, claiming God wills the plurality of religions. I thought, “This doesn’t make sense; God wills everyone to come to the one true faith.” Your article challenged that, and I’m grateful you spoke up. Can you comment on that, particularly your thoughts since 2018?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes. In my opinion, the Church is in great danger of relativizing the uniqueness of our Lord Jesus Christ by promoting a false interreligious dialogue. When all religions are presented together with Catholics as equal, it effectively puts Jesus Christ in a pantheon of religions. This is an implicit betrayal of the Gospel.
We must not renounce Christ for fear of the world. We are for dialogue, we love people of other religions and want every soul to know Jesus Christ personally and be saved for eternity. The mission of the Church is to preach the Gospel to all nations. Yet today, even the highest authorities in the Church are de facto undermining this command.
We must pray that the Holy Spirit enlightens the Pope to recognize this danger and reaffirm Christ’s uniqueness. Peter will stand up again in Rome and fearlessly proclaim, as the first Pope did, that there is no other name under heaven by which people can be saved except Jesus Christ.
John Yep: We need to hear that more. This is a supremely unique time in Church history. Sons and daughters of the Church are trying to faithfully navigate how to speak up, not out of rage or hatred, but out of love for Jesus. We pray for the Holy Father, our bishops, and look to your example.
I also wanted to mention your book; it’s a modern catechism, easy to read, and an excellent compendium of the Catholic faith. I was recently reviewing it to revisit Church teaching on the death penalty. The current Catechism says the death penalty is inadmissible, essentially never permissible. This seems contradictory to prior teaching. Could you shed light on this?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: The Bible, Church Fathers, and popes over 2,000 years permitted the death penalty in exceptional cases. No pope can declare it intrinsically evil because that contradicts Holy Scripture and the Church’s constant teaching. This is a simple fact.
John Yep: Thank you for clarifying. It’s the humility and courage in speaking up that matters, as well as praying for our shepherds, which is what a martyr seeks to do.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: As Blessed Father Martyn Alekseyevich said, we must remain faithful to the teachings of our forefathers, including this one, which the Church upheld until now.
John Yep: That’s such a help when bishops like yourself reaffirm that, because we on the front lines get battered enough by running a cultural political institution. We try to get Catholics engaged in civic life, to try to save this country, America, and we get enough from our non-Catholic brethren. We get tons of emails and feedback like, What is going on with your church? Why aren’t you speaking up about these issues? Why are you compromising? And we’re like, I don’t know. So when we have the likes of you, we’re really grateful. It’s a help to us, and we have to help and support each other. I know we’re coming to the end of this interview, but circling back to the book on martyrdom, just quickly, three types of martyrdom. What are they, especially the canonical definition of blood martyrdom? Can you explain that, Bishop?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: The first martyrdom is the so-called blood martyrdom. It means that someone is killed or gives his life, his body, his blood, for the sake of Jesus Christ, to be killed because of hatred against Christ. To be a victim of hatred against Jesus Christ and God’s commandments, to be a witness of faithfulness, shedding your blood, even to this extent. This is the meaning of blood martyrdom. St. Augustine said, it is not the suffering itself which makes martyrdom. It is the cause, the reason, the aim. Martyrdom is the most perfect imitation of our Lord, Jesus Christ, because our Lord is the source of martyrdom, his sacrifice on the cross, out of love, out of witness for truth. He gave His life, shed His blood. The martyrs imitate our Lord, even literally, also shedding their blood. In this case, they are the closest imitators of Jesus Christ, the supreme testimony of love.
In church history, when martyrdom ceased in the fourth century with the freedom under Emperor Constantine, God awakened a new form of life in the church, the monastic life. First, with the Desert Fathers in Egypt, thousands of young people went to the desert and lived a very penitential life, completely surrendering themselves and their lives to Christ. Then the monastic life, properly the religious life, with the three vows, giving your life completely to God, in virginity, chastity, obedience, and poverty. This form of life is a kind of spiritual sacrifice of love, total self-giving, surrendering to Christ for the sake of Jesus Christ. This is called white martyrdom. It is not bloodshed, but the spirit of martyrdom. A religious person, a monk, a nun, must have in the soul the spirit of martyrdom, offering their life as a sacrifice of love, a testimony of love.
In some places in the Middle Ages, there was a kind of green martyrdom or blue martyrdom. People were not monks or religious; they were not killed directly, but they suffered, doing penance, bringing corporal or spiritual sacrifices, suffering diseases or trials, uniting these sufferings with the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, moved by love. In this case, we can also speak of a kind of spiritual martyrdom.
John Yep: Those types of martyrdom we see all around the world today. They happen, and they give life; they are salvific. The proof is in the priests you knew, Father Olesky and others, because their example helped you. Ironically, I have to share too, Bishop, in my own life. I have a distant cousin, a Polish priest, Father John Chuba. He was ordained the day I was born, and he was martyred in the Congo on October 27, 1998, an anniversary just days ago. He inspires me, and I’m sure many watching this podcast can think about a time when they interacted with a saint, a future saint, someone holy, or a martyr, as you did in your life. Bishop, I’m sure you pray to Father Olesky and others for inspiration. We have to do the same. We have to hear the faith of our forefathers. We sing that famous song, Faith of Our Fathers. This book is timely; it’s needed because we have to be willing to go the distance, to do what is necessary, because the world is so evil, they are ready to kill you. Are we ready? Any final comments, and maybe a thought about Our Lady as we wrap up?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Our Lady is called by tradition and in the liturgy the Queen of Martyrs. This is right because no other creature imitated our Lord, Jesus Christ, in His sacrifice so closely as Our Lady. She stood directly beneath the cross, consenting as a mother to the bloody sacrifice of her divine Son. St. Bernard of Clairvaux explained the sorrowful mother, saying that the sword pierced her soul before it pierced the heart of our Lord. She first suffered spiritually, as a mother, because she was the most pure, immaculate creature, without sin, capable of feeling suffering more deeply than a person stained with sin. She is the Queen of Martyrs because she was the closest imitation of our Lord, Jesus Christ. In some texts of church history, she is even called the Coredemptrix, in the sense that she was present and collaborating as a mother in the redemption. She remains our greatest help in trials and sorrows, our mother, who became our mother in the moments she suffered most.
John Yep: The best way to end is talking about Our Lady, Bishop. On that note, I want to invite you to visit. In the United States, we only have one approved Marian apparition, Our Lady of Champion in Wisconsin. This show is called Catholic Champion, named after the shrine, where Mary’s message was to teach the children the faith, literally to teach them how to sign the cross and approach the sacraments. This show highlights champions living Mary’s message, which you are doing with this book on martyrs and your catechesis on the Compendium of the Catholic Church. We need more of that. We’re grateful for that, and I know Mary is helping us. Please, come visit. It’s a special place. Bishop, final thoughts, and if you could end with your benediction, your blessing upon all of us watching. We need the grace for the fight. People who are Catholics are determined individuals on the front lines, pushing back, believing in our faith, but we need help and prayers. Can you give us your blessing?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Thank you for your beautiful work. I encourage all listeners to ask the Lord for the grace to remain always faithful until death to the immutable Catholic Church, to our Lord Jesus Christ, and to be strengthened in our day with the spirit of the martyrs and the gift of fortitude of the Holy Spirit. I give you the blessing:
Benedictio Dei omnipotentis Patris et Fili et Spiritus Sancti descendent super vos et maneat semper. Amen.
Praise be Jesus Christ.
John Yep: Now and forever.
Thank you so much for your time. We’ll make sure people get this book and pass it out. We need to read this, pass it on to our clergy and faithful, and get inspired. Thank you for your time, and we look forward to seeing you again soon.