Transcript:
Nicolas Cavazos
Everyone welcome back to the traditional Thomas. My name is Nicolas Cavazos. And today we have a very, very special guest on the show, Bishop Athanasius Schneider who kindly agreed back in June of this year to come on the show, and to discuss one, the topic of the Latin Mass, he’s really well known for, two, and this is kind of our overarching theme for this episode, how to remain a traditional Catholic in an ever-increasing anti-Catholic world? And so I hope this episode is beneficial to you in a lot of areas. But I hope that as it did me that edifies your spirit because Bishop Schneider is hands down, I would say, one of the holiest, kindest, and sweetest bishops that I’ve ever seen. He’s the first bishop I’ve met since becoming a Catholic so this was a real treat. He’s also the first priest on the show. And so I just want to say again, thank you so much Bishop Schneider for agreeing to come on the show. Bishop Schneider, for those of you who don’t know, Bishop Athanasius Schneider is the auxiliary bishop for Kazakhstan. And he’s really well known for his holiness and his zeal in fighting for the traditional faith. He has a book that I recommend you guys go and get this book right here, “Christus Vincit”. This is an interview that was done with him that I personally found to be very good and addresses all kinds of issues along the lines of, you know, his upbringing, his involvement with fighting secularism and indifferentism. It also talks about his call to the priesthood, and his experience with the Second Vatican Council growing up in the reforms. It talks about the Latin Mass, this Society St. Pius X. It gets into more current issues along the lines of the Amoris Laetitia and the Abu Dhabi document. I find it to be a very, very pertinent book. And so this interview that you’re about to see is definitely a much shorter version of that longer interview, but I recommend everyone go ahead and go to the link in the description below to find this book and go and buy it. It’s definitely worth your money. Anyway, I hope that you guys all enjoy this. And, yeah, please keep Bishop Schneider in your prayers. This was definitely an honor. An honor and a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to take part in so please keep him in your prayers. All right, Your Eminence, thank you again, so much for agreeing to come on the show today. When you are ready, you would do me a great honor to lead us in a prayer that would be wonderful.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
Pater Noster, qui es in caelis, sanctificetur nomen tuum. Adveniat regnum tuum. Fiat voluntas tua, sicut in caelo et in terra. Panem nostrum quotidianum da nobis hodie, et dimitte nobis debita nostra sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris. Et ne nos inducas in tentationem, sed libera nos a malo. Amen.
Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum. Benedicta tu in mulieribus, et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Iesus. Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc, et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
Nicolas Cavazos
All right, thank you so much again, your Eminence, for agreeing to come on. This is truly a good personal pleasure to go ahead and dive into our first question for today. So many people know you as a great defender of the Latin Mass, the traditional doctrine, and faith. However, a lot of people don’t know your biographical story, specifically, your growing up. And so in this ever-increasing secular world that we’re living in, I thought it would be pertinent and wise to dive into your personal backstory because a lot of people don’t know that you grew up as a child and as a young man behind the iron curtain. So if you would go ahead and please tell us about that as well as how did our Lord call you to the priestly grace?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider
First, I would say that our entire life is surrounded and immersed in divine providence. Divine providence is so loving and wise which God established for every one of us. Eternally, divine providence has been established and foreseen in the ways of our life. I’m very grateful to divine providence that I was born in a deeply Catholic family. My ancestors from both sides were deeply Catholic. It is for me the greatest gift of God that I received the Catholic faith, as to what people say, mother’s milk. It was truly a gift of God to grow up in this atmosphere of faith. I will also thank God that I lived in a time of persecution of the Church. If you are really a believer and you firmly believe in the truth of the faith, you have to experience this persecution. This will bring you joy for God is with you especially when you are ready to sacrifice temporal advantages for the sake of the faith, to sacrifice your life for God. This was my childhood experience during the Soviet Union. I also experienced the holiness of priests when we shared with them the time of being in catacombs, not literally, but in the spirit of hiding during Soviet time. In order to pray especially on special occasions, a priest would come secretly and would hide in parts of the house. I remember this priest who radiated holiness because he was ready to die for Christ, just as the apostles, the great missionaries, and all the martyrs in Church history did. The example of this priest will give you strength, especially during my childhood when we celebrated Holy Mass, in Latin towards God with all devotion and reverence, in a clandestine manner. I think you asked me how God called me to the priesthood, to the vocation. The deepest roots in my vocation is this soil of the Catholic family. I believe there were two priests in my life who had an influence. The first is a blessed martyr priest, Oleksa Zaryckyj, he was a clandestine priest who was very close to my parents and he really sacrificed himself completely to save souls. He was then put in concentration camps and died there as a martyr. This priest was very close to my family. My mother once saved him from the police and in gratitude to my mother and my family, he promised to always pray for all the children in my family. He blessed me before he was arrested and sent to the Gulag concentration camp. I was one year old at that time when he blessed me according to my mother. I was present and close to the table where he celebrated Holy Mass. When he had to leave, he blessed me and my other siblings. I believe that the blessing of this holy priest made an impact and importance to my vocation before God. The other priest was from Estonia where I lived, who prepared me for my first holy confession and Holy Communion when I was 10 years old. He was a priest from Latvia, a holy man, and he impressed me so much as a boy in the way he presents himself; serious, firm, and peaceful. He is really a man of God. When we came to west Germany, it was forbidden in the Soviet Union for minors to attend Holy Mass. Nevertheless, I started to serve Holy Mass and after the first time I served, I felt in my soul that I have to become a priest. It was not a vision and I am not a mystic but before my eyes, I saw this face of the priest who gave me my first Holy Communion, who impressed me so much as a child, while I am serving the Holy Mass. I was 13 years old when I deeply convinced myself that I have to become a priest. Since then I never doubted myself in becoming a priest, it was so deep in my soul that this vocation to the priesthood is a gift from God. Maybe in some way, this is a long answer to your question about my vocation. To summarize, it is important to have a good foundation in the Catholic family and the examples of priests.
Nicolas Cavazos
Thank you so much, Your Excellency, that’s a very beautiful story, as you came out of the Soviet Union. I know in your book, you talk a lot about how you started to experience, especially after the 1960s massive waves of indifferentism in certain forms and fashion, whether that came to doctrine or whether that came from really the practical disciplines of the Church, things along the nature, communion in the hand instead of on the tongue. Today, we live in a great similar time of mass indifferentism and increasing secularization. On a practical level. This is a very pastoral question, how do Catholics in our day continue to cultivate a sense of reverence in true faith amongst themselves, in order to ward off these more negative influences?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider
I see the most important thing is your convictions. You need to have a deep conviction of faith and truth. If you do not have the conviction for your faith and for the truth, you will easily be carried away by the current. The presence of Jesus Christ in the Holy Sacraments is really the truth that you believe. Therefore, you cannot behave yourself in a superficial manner, inside the Church or even during Holy Communion, you cannot simply stand and take our Lord in the Eucharist with your hands. It is impossible. When you truly believe the majesty of God in this little host, you cannot simply continue to take it the same way you take a piece of cake at a party or treat it in the same manner as common food. When you deeply believe that the Holy Mass is the sacramental presence of the Sacrifice of the Cross in Golgotha, the real presence of the cross on the altar, then you cannot simply be content with these Holy Masses celebrated in a fashion of simple gatherings or a banquet as it is experienced today. Then you are deeply longing for the manner of the Holy Mass celebrated where you experience that you are spiritually present in Golgotha at the foot of the cross where Jesus Christ sacrificed himself out of love and for our redemption. When you are penetrated with these truths of the Catholic faith, then you will not be carried away with the current times and you cannot be indifferent. Then, you would have a longing to defend the faith because it is the truth. Your Catholic faith, Jesus Christ in the Sacrament, and the commandments of God are the greatest treasures here on earth. Through these greatest treasures; you will even have the desire to defend, spread, and share the truth, to become a modern-day apostle. The truth has to be touched by your soul. St. Paul writes in his letter to Timothy, I know whom I believed and I know whom I trust, in Latin, scio cui credi. I think this is the basic foundation and attitude in order to resist the secular reason and indifferentism in our modern society, and also within the life inside the Church which has been penetrated. Joseph Ratzinger, when he was still a simple priest and a professor of theology, once wrote that the Church and Catholics will become some kind of neo-pagans. They behave like pagans but call themselves Catholics. It is interesting and at the same time prophetic because we are witnessing these realities already within the Church. These people call themselves Catholic yet they support the LGBT agenda. This is not a true Christian but a pagan because the pagans allowed all forms of abomination to God in forms of adultery and homosexuality. These were the idols that the pagans worshiped that eventually became their vice. So Catholics today who promote such things are really pagans when they promote adultery and abortion implicitly and explicitly and encourage them to receive Holy Communion. This attitude of complete relativism which practically denies divine truth is ultimately blaspheming God. We are witnessing this phenomenon of neo-paganism not only in our society but also within the Church. So we have to cultivate our deep and unshakable convictions. We should not only cultivate intellectual convictions or ideologies but also cultivate the faith and divine truths of God’s commandments that we are ready to sacrifice our life for. This is our vocation and with God’s help, we should always remain faithful to Christ, especially in defending his truth, commandments, and the Holy Eucharist. God will always protect you and He will surely be your protector.
Nicolas Cavazos
Amen to that. Thank you so much, Your Excellency. That concept of being ready to die for the faith reminds me of St. Francis de Sales when he writes in his Introduction to the Devout Life, that famous book and treatise, that whenever you know, those who seek true devotion, perfect charity for our Lord, when they’re sitting in Holy Mass, and they hear those wonderful words of the Creed, how they should possess within themselves and your disposition to want to die for the words that they’re hearing for to die for the faith in essence. I really appreciate that. And I guess moving on to my third question, and this kind of touches a little bit on your biographical portion as well, growing up whenever the Second Vatican Council and the subsequent reforms after the Council was taking place. I’m sure going through your book, I noticed a lot of confusion that was going on. And you know, my generation suffers from those confusions today, especially with documents along the lines of Amoris Laetitia and the Abu Dhabi document. Those are not directly related to the documents of the Second Vatican Council, but some would argue that they are the fruits of certain documents. As Catholics go forward, how should we best interpret those documents and try to maintain that sense of Catholicity that you’ve been speaking about?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider
We have to know the truth, therefore, we have to read. The Church always taught in the councils, the so-called dogmatic councils. Vatican II was the exception because this Council was distinguished from all other Councils because this Council was only a pastoral Council. John XXII and Paul VI repeatedly stated that this Second Vatican Council has no intention to proclaim new doctrines which will be binding and have definitive characteristics for Catholics. Instead, they said, the Second Vatican Council’s aim is to explain in a deeper and new manner the ever-valid Catholic truths. So, it is a question of methods in explaining things from a pastoral perspective therefore, it cannot have unchanging or infallible characteristics. This was indeed not the intention of the Council. Therefore, we have not made Vatican II an infallible Council. The Council itself did not want to be infallible by those formulations which they did themselves, in a sense that 80% of those formulations were simply quoted from previous councils and previous dogmatic formulations. We are not stating new formulations to the Council, for example, the explanations about how we go about other religions or this so-called religious freedom and the collegiality of the Bishops. These are the three points in my main point, which are questions that need to be resolved because the manner of explanations is not yet definitive. There might be a possibility the Council left these formulations in an open manner but unfortunately since it is not formulated clearly and without ambiguity, it paves the way for the possibility to make erroneous and different interpretations which is clearly not the aim of a Council and a Magisterium. The Magisterium by nature is to give the most precise and clear explanations in matters of faith to the people, Catholic or non-Catholic, not erroneous interpretations. We are witnessing not only erroneous interpretations but also implementations. This wrong idea of ecumenism, for example, where the truth of the Catholic teachings and the uniqueness of our Lord Jesus Christ is relativized. These Catholics who are participating in this false understanding of ecumenism have clear impressions that ultimately all religions are legitimate and parallel ways towards God. This false idea is spreading rapidly today. This is the most dangerous aspect, for it undermines the Gospel allowing Christians to no longer have the zeal to proclaim Christ because everyone will be saved regardless of their religion as long as it is aimed towards God. This is contrary to the entire revelation of the Gospel because it is against the will of God. These different religions who are not accepting Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and continue to go their own ways is a disobedience towards God, who commanded us to believe in His Incarnate Son and the Holy Mother Church. We have to know the doctrines from the Dogmatic Ecumenical Councils that made clear and unambiguous teachings like the Council of Trent, the First Vatican Council, and the Papal Encyclicals. I would recommend reading the Encyclicals of Pope Leo XIII. These documents are so clear even to the questions about different religions, the uniqueness of the Church and Christ, and Freemasonry which are very timely questions. You can also read the Encyclical letter of Pope Pius X about the errors of ecclesial modernism, Pascendi Dominici Gregis. It is a masterpiece of clarity. We also have the Encyclical of Pope Pius XI about the Social Kingship of Christ. These documents I would highly encourage you to read and study these to have a good foundation of your faith. So, when you read documents from the Second Vatican Council or the Abu Dhabi documents or Fratelli Tutti, you can comprehend that these documents and formulations are pastoral in nature, not dogmatic which also means that these can be improved or even corrected in order to have a clearer and accurate interpretation, which is deeply based on the Magisterium. We ask and pray that this correction and improvements will come and that the Magisterium will give clarity regarding the inconsistencies and ambiguities that were formulated by the Council and the Pope, especially Amoris Laetitia, Fratelli Tutti, and the Abu Dhabi document. This I hope will be clarified in the future. It is true because the Church is a Church of God, not of man, and as Christ is head of the Church, He will clarify in due time. In the meantime, we have to stick to the clear and unambiguous documents and teachings of the previous Councils and Popes. However, not exclusively, for example, the beautiful Encyclical of Pope Paul VI about the Eucharist, Mysterium Fidei. In 1968, Pope Paul VI published a document entitled, Solemni Hac Liturgia, Credo of the People of God which talks about the beautiful profession of faith. I would also recommend three beautiful Encyclicals of John Paul II, these are, Vertitatis Splendor which speaks clearly about aspects of morality, Evangelium Vitae which addresses the value of human life and maintains that societies and individuals should do everything in their power to preserve life, and Ecclesia de Eucharistia which concerns the faithful in taking part in the Eucharistic Sacrifice. I would also like to add Pope Paul VI Encyclical entitled, Human Vitae, which greatly talks about the issue of contraception. We have to stick to these precious documents before the Council. Even after the council, the documents that I have mentioned are very clear on the teachings of the Magisterium.
In my opinion, one of the most important documents of Benedict XVI was his Motu Proprio, Summorum Pontificum. This Motu Proprio speaks greatly on the traditional liturgy of the Holy Mass in which Benedict XVI stated it was never abolished, it cannot be abolished because it is the expression of the faith of the Church for so many centuries. Benedict XVI considered this traditional liturgy the treasure of the Church from our forefathers and every faithful and priest have the right to access this ancient liturgy. This is a very important document. The very famous Papal Bull of Pope Pius V, Quo Primum, in some way, canonized the traditional form of the liturgy so that no priest can be forbidden to celebrate this solemn form of the Mass in the future. Therefore, Summorum Pontificum is in some way the answer to the Papal Bull of Pope Pius V. These are the documents that show clarity which is why we need to stick to these documents that give us clarity. So, when we find documents and expressions after the Council and currently in these particular times which are not clear or ambiguous we need to look for documents that will give us clarity.
All the Popes substantially recognize the validity of the Traditional Mass even after the Council, in fact, Pope Pius V granted an indult to the country of England and Wales in 1971 it was called the Agatha Christie Indult. This famous writer, Agatha Christie, asked the Pope to allow them to celebrate the Traditional Form of the Mass in England and Wales after the Council. John Paul II was also generous in granting certain regions to celebrate the ancient liturgy, same goes for Benedict XVI. Therefore, these phenomena that we find in documents and expressions, that are not clear and ambiguous, we have to simply wait because they will not last. There will come a time when there will be clarity and correction by the future Magisterium. Only clarity of the teachings will give us a sense of security and joy.
Nicolas Cavazos
Thank you so much, Your Excellency, that actually transitions perfectly to my final question for you, which is kind of a two-sided, one which is speaking of Summorum Pontificum. What’s on every traditional Catholic’s mind right now is the document Traditionis Custodes published by His Holiness Pope Francis this year. This restricts greatly the use of the Tridentine Missal, in my personal opinion, not just back to the 1988 insult of John Paul II but it restricts it perhaps even a bit more. So, my question is what were your reactions to this Motu Proprio, and then on a second fold on a practical level, there are many Catholics, including myself, who have studied and are now considering having recourse to the Society of St. Pius X. Do you consider that to be a wise and prudential choice?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider
Well, every Catholic priest or bishop who truly loves the traditional liturgy and who grew up celebrating this precious liturgy feels sad about this Motu Proprio. We can compare this ancient liturgy like a treasure in the form of a house, a beautiful and healthy house and it is doing so much good in sheltering and taking care of the family, and the father of the family comes along and locks up this treasure. He then justifies that it is only a restriction and a few limitations but at some time this treasure will be perpetually hidden and locked. This is actually Traditionis Custodes and this is its aim. The spontaneous reaction will be sadness because it begs the question why are we deprived of these treasures for our family? This is an inheritance that we should be able to inherit from our forefathers. This ancient liturgy is not the private property of the father of the family, rather it is a treasure that has accumulated the wisdom, holiness, and the blood of the martyrs. So, it is really precious. The father of the family is only the administrator, not the owner, and the family members are aware of this, and he locked this treasure paving the way for its limited access. Naturally, the family members will consider this a great injustice and shall make ways to respectfully and insistently ask to reclaim this treasure. Reminding the father that this is not your property and humbly asking him to open this treasure again. However, the father can justify some certain abuses and therefore locked the precious treasure. It would be a fundamental injustice to punish all for one or twenty abusers of the treasures. This is the situation of Traditionis Custodes. I would like to say that we have to ask for its reopening, its unlocking through some authority of the bishops. We still have to ask them—bishops even if they will allow it or not. This is my first impression of this document. In a practical aspect, we have to simply ask for the opening of this treasure from our bishops in order to cater to the pastoral needs of the priest to the faithful. Like in the Gospel, the widow came to the unjust church and asked but the judge refused, but ultimately, because of her persistence, the judge heard the request of the widow. We can imitate the persistence of the widow especially in this current situation of the drastic restriction of the Latin Mass in some Dioceses. Then, I think that priests could continue to celebrate the traditional form in a clandestine manner like in family home altars but only during extreme and extraordinary situations. I think in times of war, it is an extreme situation and it is legitimate because this disobedience is not an abuse of power. The Pope and the bishops do not have any authority to prohibit this great treasure of the Church. They may have authority when they proclaim rulings such as Motu Proprio but this is an abuse of canonical power that God did not give them to prohibit and damage something which is holy and produced so many good fruits from the saints for over a millennia. They cannot make these decisions, they are clearly blinded by their ideologies and we have to pray that God will open their eyes.
If there is no other possibility for you to attend the Traditional Mass, a chapel or a church of the Society of St. Pius X is permissible in this case because they are not canonically schismatic. Since Benedict XVI lifted up the excommunication of the four bishops, with this the society itself is not excommunicated. The excommunication is only directed to the four bishops, not to the priests and the faithful. For you to be schismatic, you have to make a conscious act of rejecting the Pope and the community of bishops, and I assume that no faithful or priests of the Society of St. Pius X has done this personal schismatic act. Therefore, canonically, they are not schismatic because they are also praying for the Pope (a schismatic never prays for the Pope) and the local bishop, this is a sign that they are in communion with the Church but do not have proper canonical status because of the current crisis of the Church after the council and with the introduction of the New Mass. We have to understand this difficult situation of the Church, and with the introduction of the New Mass by Pope Paul VI. Therefore, in some way, I think that the work of Archbishop Lefebvre, a few years ago, was, in some kind providential because of the current extreme realities of the crisis of the Church. Because of this, the Society of St. Pius X is contributing to the remedy of this crisis of the Church. Considering, of course, that every community has its flaws and failures which in this case is normal due to human tendencies and nature. Every community may have some problematic person or priests, this is evident in every community. My wish is that the Society of St. Pius X will be more open in cooperating with the bishops and the priests who love the faith and liturgy of all times. I believe now is the time, in this critical moment, to be united in fighting together and not against one another the errors of the modern world for the sake of the Catholic faith, the beauty of the liturgy of the Mass, for the families, for the priestly formation, and especially for the renewal of the holiness of the Church.
Nicolas Cavazos
That’s beautiful. Thank you so much. Yeah, to conclude, one thing I always like to do for all of my guests, is not just to thank you but also encourage all of the listeners to go ahead and pray a rosary for the guest. And so for you viewers out there, if you would be so kind as to pray a rosary for His Excellency, Bishop Schneider, I know he would definitely appreciate it as I would. To conclude, I just want to say thank you so much, again, for your time, and for this opportunity to come on. Just like I was telling you before we started, it’s been a really an interesting time, you know, being a Catholic coming into the Church, in the era of the Pachamama scandals and all the subsequent, I guess, confusion and ambiguity, but it is very good and very inspiring to see holy men like yourself, that the Lord will raise up to you to truly shepherd the sheep. And so, I just want to say thank you so much for that and for all the work that you do.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider
You’re welcome. I would like to encourage you to continue your good work with your friends and to the young people. You are really a light to such young people, and I thank God for this, who loves the faith and the liturgy of all times. Try always to be true Catholics and Christians. This is my desire that your work will continue to increase. May God bless your work and all who are assisting you. I will now give my blessing to all of you.
Dominus vobiscum.
Nicolas Cavazos
Et cum spiritu tuo.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider
Benedictio Dei Omnipotentis, Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti, descendat super vos et maneat semper.
Nicolas Cavazos
Amen. Thank you so much, Your Excellency. Thank you everyone for tuning in. And as always, May our Lord bless you, Our Lady keep you, and St. Joseph watch over you. God bless!
