Robert Nugent: Going on to the third part of your book. It speaks about eminent examples of martyrdom, and you include the Blessed Virgin Mary on page 69, and this might kind of tie in with the current debate on our Blessed Mother. That is unprecedented. I’ve never seen this with the latest document. And maybe you want to explain a little bit about connecting her with the martyr. But also, do you want to just give you a few thoughts on the latest document, the doctrinal note that was issued by the Vatican?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, I think it’s simple, to be honest, it’s sad. It leaves a deep sense of sadness, as you know, a sense that you see that your own mother had been so downplayed in her honor, so as to reduce the theology and the devotion of Our Lady to a minimum. So this, this is an example, a display, this document of Marian minimalism. But since the beginning, all the Christians wanted to manifest evermore their cordial filial love to their mother, the Heavenly Mother, Mother of God, mother of all US. And this was the Catholic spirit. Of course, we have known that our Lord is God, and he alone redeemed us. We were not so unathletic in theology, even for people they had, they knew, to distinguish it, they were not crazy. Maybe, of course, there could be some exotic people, even with a wrong Marian devotion.
But this is a minority that is not representative of the church. There was no reason to make this document, because there were no abuses in this Marian devotion. I can concede that maybe some, some people did it, but they were not so, so representative so and reducing our lady from her important role in the in the history of salvation, in the work of redeeming of her divine Son, which, by divine providence, got included the cooperation, the unique, unique cooperation of Our Lady, different from all other cooperations in with God and with grace, she is really unique, the maternal cooperation in the work of our salvation, of course, subordinated to Christ, the new Eve and so on. Since the beginning of the church. St. Irenaeus of Leon was a father of the church, a doctor of the church from the second century already. He formulated this phrase that Our Lady, by her obedience, by her consent to the Divine Will of salvation. She became the cause of salvation for herself and for all entire humanity. In strong words, causa salutis in Latin, causa salutis for all humanity.
So it’s already in the second century, basically the meaning of the unique cooperation, in this sense, is core damn tricks. And then the Mediatrix of all graces, that she is not the source of graces. She’s only transmitting; this is mediating, transmitting the graces of Jesus Christ. She is the mediator between Jesus Christ and the sinful humanity, the souls to transmit them maternally, the graces of her divine Son, the redeemed, where she cooperated in some way as a mother, and God gave her, for this cooperation, motherly cooperation, the right and the privilege to distribute, to canalize all these graces. This is a common doctrine for centuries in the church by church fathers, St. Bernard of Clairvoytse, doctor of the church. St. Alphonsus spoke on chorodemtorics and on mediatoryx, doctor of the church, even the most recent doctor of the church, John Henry Newman. He also used the title chorodemtics. Even John Henry Newman, you see, and so many popes during more or less 100 years. It’s a considerable period of time which the ordinary Magisterium, the Popes used it, and in some liturgical texts, also the title of Mediatrix in other cases of co-redemptrix. So in the end, it cannot be suddenly, after these examples of the doctors of the Church of the magisterium, the Pontifical Magisterium, the ordinary Magisterium, that it becomes suddenly inappropriate.
Robert Nugent: So always inappropriate. That’s the text they put in English.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Always, always inappropriate. It means that all these popes were speaking inappropriately. It is a condemnation of these Popes. It’s a condemnation of John Henry Newman, of st Alphonsus, and slain Maximilian Kolbe. And all this is a, I think it is. It is an abuse of this document of power. And it is an abuse to declare, declare all these implicitly. They declared all these church fathers and the Popes to be always inappropriate teachings that we cannot accept. This is contrary to the nature of the church, to the nature of the doctrine. So I repeat, it is an abuse of office to make such statements. They could invite people and theologians, and bishops to reflect deeper. It would be better to make a note. Let us, it is still a question which we can develop and invite in a synodal way, as they say, inviting people. Well, synodally we have to listen.
Please listen to what people and theologians think about Goddemplix and but not make a kind of hidden committee with some people in the Vatican who want to implement a minimalistic Mariology and declare de facto, implicitly, those so many popes and church fathers speak inappropriately, always, so it is to lament. But in some way, it awakened many people in the church to deeply or more deeply reflect on this truth of our Lady in her decorative redemption and the remission of graces. And I think it will help to deepen this truth. And truth will remain in spite of this doctrinal note, and the doctrinal note is a low level of church documents, thanks be to God. And there is no formal prohibition on using. It’s only said it is inappropriate. Well, it’s not, it’s not a formal prohibition. Therefore, they can continue to discuss in a synodal way.
Robert Nugent: Yes, it did. It did touch a sore chord with me. I mean, I think I didn’t ever see any confusion with calling her co-redemptrix. We have one Redeemer and Christ. It was God’s will that she would be participating in redemption. And I mean, 30 years, it was explained pretty clearly, and all of a sudden, I think for me, it’s like the Vatican is creating this confusion. Maybe I didn’t see any confusion among ordinary Catholics before this document, but anyway.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, it was a kind of confusion that they had in their thoughts. I mean, it’s an invented confusion for a concrete agenda to minimize. The Mariology role of Our Lady to kind of minimize, but we have to do reparation, even show more love for her, deepen the doctrine of co-redemptrix and Mediatrix with sound arguments, and to promote more the devotion and love of Our Lady, because only a renewed Eucharistic faith devotion and practice and love and a renewed Mariology and devotion and love will renew the church again.
Robert Nugent: Yes