Steve: We’re now very honored to join us one of the leaders of the Catholic Church, particularly the traditional wing of Catholicism, Bishop Athanasius Snyder. Bishop, thank you very much for joining us. You have a new book out from Sophia Press on the Catholic Mass. You’re known as one of the leaders globally of the traditional teachings of the Church, particularly about the teachings of the sacraments and, precisely, the Mass. What inspired you to write this book, and can you tell us something about it?
Bishop Schneider: Well, the theme of the Holy Mass, we have to be aware of what the Holy Mass is. The Holy Mass is the most important act in the life of the entire Church. Why? Because the Holy Mass is the mystical sacramental presence, the real presence of the act of our salvation for all humanity, the sacrifice of the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, we cannot speak enough about the central act in the life of the Church, which is not her act in the first place, but it is the redeeming act of the God-man, Jesus Christ, the redeemer of humankind. This is his act, but he allows the Church to participate in his redeeming act through the sacrament of the Holy Mass. Therefore, this is the fountain, the ever-living fountain of graces and life of the Church. This is the Sun shining here on Earth, the true Sun. We have to state again what the Mass is. The meaning of the Mass and all the details of the Mass are oriented toward Christ and his sacrificial act of redemption.
Steve: When I was younger, the Church had the Vatican Council. I was an altar boy right before it. The Council changed the Mass dramatically, and then, about ten years later, they started to allow the traditional Mass in my diocese. So my parents began attending a traditional Tridentine church that had the traditional Mass. Why is the centrality of the traditional rite so important, not just for the Church, but for mankind? Why did the pope call a council back in the late 50s, early 60s, that radically changed a Mass that had been in place for almost two millennia? Why was it changed?
Bishop Schneider: First, we have to distinguish what the council fathers intended regarding the reform of the liturgy. When we carefully read the text of the Vatican Council document Sacrosanctum Concilium, there is a careful approach, not as drastic or revolutionary as it became afterward. The true form of the Mass of Vatican II was actually the form of 1965. In January 1965, a new order of the Mass was published, and the council fathers, in the last session in the fall of 1965, celebrated this form. The 1965 form of the reformed Mass was substantially the same as the centuries-old traditional Mass, with only small changes, mainly giving more place to the vernacular language. This was the 1965 reform, considered very organic. Even Archbishop Marcel celebrated this 1965 Mass, and in his seminary in the first years, this Mass was celebrated, which was the true Vatican II Mass.
After the Council, however, the committee of Vatican II, under the leadership of Monsignor Bugnini, made a true revolution, a completely drastic change, which we have now, unfortunately. This is the tragedy. Therefore, we have to restore and spread the form of the Holy Mass of all ages. Documents and manuscripts show that the traditional Mass was not just the Tridentine Mass; it was the same Mass that existed before the Council of Trent. It was not changed after the Council of Trent. We have documents from the beginning of the second millennium, the 11th century, showing an order of Mass the same as the traditional Latin Mass. Only small changes were made to the calendar or rubrics. For 2000 years, the Church never made drastic or revolutionary changes in the liturgy. For the first time, in 1969, and published in 1970, a truly revolutionary order of Mass was introduced, which goes against the nature of the Church.
The Church has to transmit her faith and manner of prayer carefully. The traditional form of the Mass expresses more fully and perfectly the substance of the Mass, which is the sacrifice of the cross, the most sublime act of worship and adoration of the Church on Earth, the heavenly Church, and the entire creation. The Holy Mass is first, the sacrifice on the cross was the most sublime act of adoration and worship which Christ, the God-man, gave to the Holy Trinity on behalf of all humanity and creation. Therefore, the traditional Mass emphasizes adoration and the sacrificial aspects, reverence, and all these expressions of love, not servile service, but loving service of the children of God, together with the angels and the saints.
Steve: If it didn’t come out of the Council, and you said it happened in 1969 or 1970 with Pope Paul VI, how did they change it so drastically? How did that all of a sudden happen?
Bishop Schneider: Yes, it happened because of an ideology. Those who reformed the Mass in this committee, under the leadership of Monsignor Bugnini and others, wanted to approach Catholic teaching and prayer more like Protestant practice, to stress more the banquet, the meal. But this is a secondary aspect. The centrality is the sacrifice on the cross. Christ did not redeem us with a meal, with the Last Supper. He redeemed us with His sacrifice on the cross.
There was, at least in the new Mass, a tendency to make it more like a meal style, as Protestants believe and do, and also to make the Mass more informal. The entire style of the new Mass has many moments of informality, gaps where the celebrant can improvise, and even present himself. It is very dangerous. The new Mass has within it a tendency toward performance and to be anthropocentric. This is very harmful for faith, devotion, and prayer.
Steve: One of the hopes of your new book, obviously, is to get people, particularly Catholics, to focus more on their traditional Mass and start attending it regularly.
Bishop Schneider: Yes, my new book has the subtitle Steps to Re-establish the Centrality of God in the Liturgy. This is our problem today and the deepest cause of the crisis in the Church. We have banished God from the center of Church life, in prayer and in the liturgy. Man became the center. This is the problem. God was put aside. We have to reestablish, on all levels of Church life, the concrete centrality of Christ, especially in the liturgy.
Therefore, I wanted to show in this book the richness of the Holy Mass, the unspeakable richness of this act of our salvation, which has been ritually celebrated and developed over centuries and millennia through the saints. The Church kept these forms of liturgy very carefully. We have to be grateful that this form was restored by Pope Benedict, and notwithstanding the limitations and restrictions Pope Francis recently gave in the Motu Proprio Traditions Custodes, this form of the Mass, as the form of all ages, will continue, attract new generations, and inspire the faithful. The intention of my book is to demonstrate and present the unspeakable richness of the Holy Mass.
Steve: Okay, welcome back to War Room Pandemic. Our guest is Bishop Athanasius Snyder. He has a new book out about the traditional Catholic Mass, published by Sophia Press. Bishop, here’s the question. Our audience is global, with many Catholics, but also many non-Catholics. I think if you can help us with some confusion. You make the argument about the centrality of the traditional Mass, not just in Catholicism, but really for mankind. Yet people read, and maybe we misunderstand, but it appears that the Pope and the Vatican have gone out of their way to try to restrict access to both the saying and participation in the traditional Mass. Can you explain this? Are we misinterpreting it, or does it seem like a contradiction between what you are advocating and what the Vatican and the Pope are decreeing?
Bishop Schneider: Well, I think the measures Pope Francis took in limiting access to the celebration of the traditional Latin Mass reveal the mentality and ideological orientation of his pontificate. It is obviously a man-centered spirit and approach, focused on earthly things, primarily material realities. We see this in issues like climate change and care for the earth, which are temporal concerns. But this is not the mission of the Church. Christ came to save us from our sins, to redeem us with His precious blood, to open the gates of heaven, and to give eternal life. That is the mission of the Church.
Unfortunately, in the decades after the Council, and culminating with the pontificate of Pope Francis, there has been an excessive emphasis on earthly realities and on man, in some way forgetting the true mission of the Church, which is eternity, the life of God, grace, and the salvation of souls. The salvation of the body or of the earth is not the first priority.
In this context, we are now witnessing a pontificate in which a liturgy like the traditional form of the Mass, which is explicitly theocentric, centered on God, and focused on eternity, adoration, and eternal life, may appear as an obstacle to a more earthly-centered mentality. Such a Mass could be a continuous reproach, reminding them to give primacy to eternity and the salvation of souls.
Another reason may be that since Pope Benedict very generously restored the celebration of this Mass in 2007, it has spread rapidly, attracting young people and converts due to the inherent beauty and heavenly character of the traditional liturgy. Those in Rome, Pope Francis and his advisors, may have been concerned that this Mass was spreading and, in some way, contradicting the agenda of focusing on earthly matters. In my opinion, this could explain their approach.
Steve: Bishop, we only have a few minutes left. But by putting this book out now about the Mass, and particularly doing a tour of the United States to talk about it, do you hope to attract even more young people in the Church, or maybe people who are not active in the Church, to start coming and participating in a traditional Catholic Mass?
Bishop Schneider: Yes, we can already see this effect, even with the current limitations. In these past few months, several priests have reported that attendance at the traditional Mass has increased, and young people have become curious about why there were limitations. They wanted to experience this form of the Mass, and they came. Young people and their families are coming. This demonstrates that the traditional form of the Mass, the Mass of all ages, is a work of the Holy Spirit, preserved over centuries without change.
Even a pope cannot undo the work of the Holy Spirit. I would say the traditional Mass is stronger than Pope Francis and stronger than all limitations. It will prevail. These limitations are temporary; they will collapse because the truth and beauty of the prayer of the Church through all ages is so powerful and so compelling. This is a clear demonstration that the Church is in the hands of God.
Steve: Bishop, we’re very honored to have you join us here on War Room. Thank you, and we look forward to a much deeper conversation and interview with you. Thank you very much for joining us.
Bishop Schneider: You are welcome. God bless you.