Michael Voris: Well, first of all, Your Excellency, thank you very much for giving us the interview. We are racing from the airport; you are racing to the airport. Can I ask you, first, so many Catholics, good Catholics, feel such a sense of confusion in the church these days? What is the cause of the confusion? Why is there so much ambiguity?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: The cause? We have to go back sometime. It is not only the cause, but it has also come up in this moment because we have to seek the remote causes. The remote causes are that we have been living for 50 years inside a church environment in a climate of relativism, of doctrinal relativism, moral relativism, which was propagated, unfortunately, by a great part of the clergy in catechesis and so on.
Once relativism is present, it means the ever-valid truths which Christ gave us and the Church transmitted unchangeably were not taught clearly. So there was already a climate and environment in these past decades of relativism and of lack of clarity. The topic we see now, in these years of family, marriage, and sexuality, is only a concrete revelation of the situation we had on this particular topic, which brought up all the confusion we were living in. There were topics that were not clear, but now, on the topic of family, marriage, and sexuality, there is no possibility of being neutral in the Church. Everyone has to decide: I accept the truth of God on these topics, or I will go with the current of the world.
Michael Voris: One of the things we hear a lot, particularly in America, is this idea that almost everybody goes to heaven, that almost nobody, if anyone, goes to hell.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Well, this is a lie. This is a lie because it directly contradicts the words of our Lord, Jesus Christ, our Divine Teacher. He said to us, as in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, that it is clearly possible to be condemned eternally. Then, in the very central parable of Jesus in the Gospel of Matthew, chapter 25, the Last Judgment, Jesus clearly states that those on the left side go, Jesus said, to eternal hell, which is prepared for the devil and his followers.
So this is a real danger. To speak in the manner you mentioned is irresponsible, very irresponsible. I would compare this to observing a person approaching an abyss, a cliff, and not warning him. This is a real danger. You could fall, and then I would be responsible if he perishes. It is possible he will not fall, yes, but it is also possible he will. It is a joke with the eternal destiny of a human soul. When clergy speak in such a manner, saying, “Do not worry, everyone goes to heaven,” it is very irresponsible. I even consider it a great sin against the love of neighbor.
Michael Voris: In the United States, there is a tone of ecumenism where the conversation centers on not offending as your first concern. So, if we are talking about Catholic truth, and the majority of America is Protestant, we must speak in such a way as to not upset them.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, this is not the method of our Lord, Jesus Christ, and the apostles. If it were, our Lord Jesus Christ would not have spoken with the Jews, the Pharisees, or the scribes in the very clear manner He spoke. He even used, when necessary, hard words to show the untruth of His contemporaries. The same method was used by the apostles. If they had followed this modern method of ecumenism, they would not have spread the Gospel in their lives. The apostles, their followers, the Church Fathers, and the missionaries spoke clearly the truth of God, the commandments of God, which are clear.
Of course, they spoke with love. As St. Paul said in the Epistle to the Ephesians, Veritatem faciendo in caritate, we have to speak the truth with love. There is also a psychological aspect; the Romans called this captatio benevolentiae. You have to capture the people with benevolence because you can transmit the truth better when you establish confidence with those you address. You have, at least when possible, to establish an atmosphere of confidence and respect.
But even so, you have to tell the truth. Just as a doctor must tell a patient they have a disease, even if it is difficult news, he will do so with respect and a pedagogical method. A good doctor will say, “Yes, you have this disease. Be attentive.” Similarly, we must speak the truth of God. We must not hide anything. Hiding the truth would be irresponsible. People need to know what problems they have, and we must speak to them about the spiritual and moral illnesses of our time.
Michael Voris: Do you think that there is too much lack of clarity inside the Church about homosexuality, which has translated into talk about same-sex marriage? Many bishops will say no to same-sex marriage, but civil unions, that’s okay, that.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Not Catholic, is it? It’s not Catholic? Well, yes, I have the impression that part of the clergy and the bishops today are afraid to speak about this topic of homosexuality. They are, I would say, victims of a hostage situation. They are taken hostage by this new ideology and the dictatorship of gender ideology and homosexual ideology, whatever this is. And so they are afraid. But this is not an attitude of the apostles. They were never afraid, and the saints were not afraid. Of course, we do not have to speak every day about this topic. We have to be prudent and use common sense when necessary. But when we do speak about this topic, we have to speak very clearly, with politeness, but clearly. I have the impression that every time the topic of homosexuality is presented, bishops often, before they start to speak, excuse themselves, back out, apologize. “Please excuse me. We have, we have…” The first statement is, “We have deep veneration and respect for these persons.” Well, it is clear that we have to have deep respect, but deep respect should not be exaggerated. We also have to speak.
There are, for example, other categories of persons and problems. For example, alcoholism is a very real problem, very widespread in so many families. Well, nobody speaks about it. “We have deep respect for alcoholic persons.” Deep respect. It is clear I have to respect the person, but I also have to say, “Okay, to drink alcohol is not okay for these reasons.” Similarly, to commit homosexual acts, actions, and lifestyle is not correct. It is against reason, it is against nature, and therefore it is against the will of God. This is against the express will of God because these are divine words, inspired by the Holy Spirit, by God himself, in the Holy Scripture, in the Old Testament, in the New Testament, which directly condemn homosexual actions and homosexual behavior with very strong words.
We have to be faithful to God, not the world, and not be afraid that we will be accused of being homophobic. This is not true. When I speak on the dangers of alcoholism, I am not accused of alcoholophobia. That is nonsense. We have to return to common sense. I think, as I remember an expression of Chesterton, he said that there will come a time when we have to defend, fight, even make war, to defend common reason, common sense. I think we have already achieved that.
Michael Voris: We are here for this. You say that a number of bishops and priests are afraid to announce the truth. What are they afraid of? Do you think?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Afraid of? I think they fear negative consequences for their personal life, because when they speak the clear truth, they expect attacks from the mass media and so on. In other words, they are afraid of the powerful of this world. They are afraid there will be negative consequences for them. Ultimately, this is an egoistic attitude. We have to give our lives for Christ. The apostles gave their lives, the saints gave their lives. We have to give our lives for the truth and for our neighbor also, because when I tell him the truth, even if he does not like it, it is a kind of love for my neighbor and for the world.
It is an attitude of egoism. Perhaps they are naturally fearful or egoistic, and will speak differently when the mass media reacts. Others are opportunists. Others are careerists, because this could harm their career. These are different motivations we do not know, but God knows. They will be very surprised, and when they come to the judgment of God, He will show them this attitude in the clergy, and this will come very soon.
Michael Voris: Many faithful Catholics don’t understand why a bishop, a priest, or a cardinal would be afraid of what the mass media says about them. Many Catholics think, who cares? Let them say what they want.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: In reality, when a cardinal or bishop speaks clearly on this topic, even with respect and politeness, a campaign will start against him. They will find reasons, even false ones, and spread them worldwide. For example, they may claim he hid pedophile priests, which may not be true, but they will spread it first. Then, even to demonstrate it is false, the image and reputation of the bishop or cardinal may already be destroyed. They know this because there are professional liars in the mass media, and they have run these campaigns before.
They are afraid they might lose their position, but not their soul. They worry about losing their office for a few years. But they could still govern five years, or ten years if they are 65, and then retire. But then comes eternity. What is the comparison, ten years governing a diocese or being a cardinal, and eternity? St. Thomas More knew this. In prison, his wife told him, “You can sign and get out, keep your conviction in your heart, your soul, and sign pro forma.” He asked her how many years he would still live if he got out. She said perhaps twenty. He responded, “Twenty years and eternity, what is the comparison? You could not make a good business with this comparison.”
Michael Voris: How much damage do you think? How much damage do you think the acceptance of contraception inside the Church by many Catholics has caused to the faith?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Well, we can see now the effects in so many areas of the life of the Church, I mean, of the lay people. We can only see this in the Western world. The effect is visible. They have no children or very few children; the great part of Catholics, of so-called still practicing Catholics. And I think those who don’t practice contraception have very large families, and thanks be to God, they are in the United States, in France, and in other countries. This is a good sign. But I think this is not the absolute majority, and so we know the effects. The Catholic population is decreasing, and they have also given a bad example. These Catholics who practiced contraception gave a bad example for the non-Christians, for the non-practicing, I mean, for worldly people, because they practiced contraception, which is not Christian. And Christians adopted this lifestyle, so they gave a bad example. They are partly, I think, also responsible for the contraception culture and for the diminishing of the population in their countries, even these Catholics. I think a part of the responsibility also falls on the clergy who did not clearly teach the faithful about the immorality of contraception. Thanks be to God, there are good bishops, and our blessed Saint John Paul II was very clear in his teaching on this topic. But I think it was not sufficient. Pope John Paul II’s teaching on this topic was not sufficiently supported by the majority of the clergy, not sufficiently.
Michael Voris: Turning our attention to many of the episcopacy in Germany with the upcoming Synod, and somebody like Cardinal Marx, or what Cardinal Kasper has already said, it hurts the Church to say yes, you can be in a state of sin, mortal sin, and we will still give you Holy Communion. What’s going on in their minds?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: I don’t know. Only God knows what is going on in the minds of these cardinals and bishops. It is, for me, a contradiction, a kind of schizophrenia. It’s schizophrenia for me. You state and confess, these cardinals, yes, we confess the indissolubility of marriage. Indissolubility of marriage, okay. And then they permit the divorced and those who live outside marriage to go to Communion. Holy Communion is the sign of the marriage of Christ and the Church. This is the sacralization of this sacrament in a very grave manner, both the sacrament of the Eucharist and the sacrament of marriage. For me, this is a contradiction, a continuous contradiction. I could only explain this in another manner, that they have a form of thinking. In Latin, we say formamentis, a form of thinking which is similar to Gnostic thinking. For the Gnostic, it was okay to think one thing in theory and act differently in practice. You do not have to follow the practice because the practice is not important. Only what you are thinking is important. And so when, in theory, you continue to admit the indissolubility and sacramentality of the marriage bond, in practice, you act in the contrary way. And you are apparently at peace with this, as these bishops and cardinals show. This could be a real agnostic mental attitude.
Michael Voris: It’s a dualism, body and soul. It’s dualism.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: But that, so you have that practice, theory, and practice you can separate. And this was a typical diagnostic attitude of diagnostics and of relativism also. And so, it is, for me, a grievous situation. It is, only for me, also a revelation that these bishops and cardinals had already adopted before an attitude of their mind which is relativistic towards the truth. They already lived with this relativistic attitude.
Michael Voris: Would you say that’s perhaps from a lack of formation when they were in seminary?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, it is, of course, a lack of formation, a deformation they received in the seminary. Yes, this is, according to my opinion, one of the causes: the lack of formation, or, I think, not only the lack of formation, but also deformation. They were deformed. They were even taught, I suppose, this relativistic theology, yes.
Michael Voris: And this goes back, in many cases, even before the Vatican Council.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: It goes sometimes, in some areas, before the Vatican Council. Yes. Even Pope Pius XII had to correct these issues, and he issued the famous encyclical Humani Generis in 1950, where he enumerated the main errors. They were enumerated. It’s a kind of syllabus, but it was not applied in practice. But in a very evident manner, this relativism in the seminaries broke out after the council, as a nice continuum. Another cause, I think, is the lack of a personal relationship to Christ. When I take Christ and His Word in the Gospel seriously, I cannot be a relativist. I cannot be a relativist when I take my spiritual life with God seriously, when Christ lives in me with the Holy Spirit. It is impossible to behave or think in such a manner. Or they have built up another image of Christ, which is not Christ, agnostic.
Michael Voris: Christ, do you think God is growing angry with the conditions in the Church, speaking in human terms?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, I would not use the expression angry. This is very human and not proper. God is above our emotional states, such as anger. I would use another way: God disapproves of this. It is contrary to His will, of course, and therefore God rejects this by His essence and His will, because God is only sanctity and truth by essence. God rejects evil always. In the Bible, this is expressed as anger or wrath, but in human terms, it means the rejection of evil. God rejects evil, but God also loves sinners and those in error, to attract them to holiness and truth. Like a good pastor, He goes and seeks and waits until they come back.
All humanity is in error, and the Church has the divine task to bring back sinners, like the Good Shepherd. Jesus told in the Gospel that when the Good Shepherd brings back the lost sheep, the angels in heaven rejoice over one sinner who repents. And this is essential: the joy is not only that the sinner came back, but that the sinner repented. Today, the attitude of some clergy, bishops, and cardinals eliminates repentance. Yes, you have to be a good shepherd and merciful, and you have to go to the periphery and bring back the lost sheep. The Church has always done this. You have to help the sinner to truly repent, accept the will of God, and this is salvation.
Of course, there were times in Church history when God could inflict punishments. We see this in the Old Testament clearly. Even St. Paul said to the Corinthians, regarding abuses of the Eucharist: “You have eaten and drunk unworthily,” First Corinthians 11. And he said, therefore, some in your community are already dead or ill. This is clearly a punishment of God because they abused the holy. And in the Apocalypse, punishments of God are described impressively for the world that rejects Him. We do not know when or in what manner. We cannot predict this. We have to be careful not to act as prophets. This is not our task. God reserves this for Himself. But there are sometimes signs, such as the general and incredible immorality and moral degradation of our modern world. It is tremendous, and it could be that God intervenes. But we do not know when or how. We have to first correct ourselves, and then warn our neighbor.
Michael Voris: A number of very good bishops, Cardinals, Cardinal Burke have said that it looks like a persecution is coming. What do you think of that?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, it could be, and we know the history of the Church. There were many persecutions in recent times. You take the French Revolution, but after this persecution, the Church was purified, a French Church. Then, the Mexican persecution of the Church, the Cristeros, yes, but even before this persecution, there was a crisis of the clergy in Mexico, a moral crisis. We must not forget this. I do not know to what extent, but it existed.
Michael Voris: It appears that, as in many periods of history, when things begin to go bad for the Church, it often begins with something going wrong in the clergy.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, we can state this in the history of the Church. And often, when there was persecution from outside, God permitted this to purify the Church internally. We should not be afraid. It is always a time for the confession of the whole faith of martyrs. As Tertullian famously said, the blood of the martyrs is the seed of new Christians. So it could also be a purification when God permits it.
Michael Voris: Catholics should always be ready for martyrdom. Sometimes it is more immediate; you sense that something is closer. You always have to be ready to die for the faith, but sometimes you have to be more ready. Do you think we are in one of those times now?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, I think we have already seen persecution and martyrdom of our brothers in the Near East, in Syria and Iraq. They were martyred before our eyes, and in other parts of the world as well. So it could also approach us one day. We do not know, but now we can also suffer spiritual martyrdom. We can be persecuted morally, not physically, and we are already persecuted morally, so we have to train for this. With the grace of God, we have to increase our faith every day and ask our Lord to strengthen it. Our Lord said, do not worry about what you will say when you are in front of judges. He will give you the wisdom and the words. When we are confident in God and try to live our Christian life, when it is the will of God that we glorify Him with martyrdom, He will give us the strength. We must not choose martyrdom; that would be wrong.
Michael Voris: Do you think there is a specific role for the laity, an additional role for the laity in this period of crisis in the Church?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, I think this is the hour of the laity today. This is what the Second Vatican Council had in mind. This is now the hour for lay people to confess Christ, to confess those realities which touch the lay people first, such as marriage and family, which are attacked today. It is not only to be a witness in front of the world, but also inside the Church. Your testimony inside the Church is important. This is mysterious, because the first witnesses should be the clergy, but now it seems the laity must, in some respects, strengthen the faith of some clergy and bishops. The Second Vatican Council also stated that the laity has a special mission inside the Church to contribute to the spiritual good of the Church. This is faith. We are very modern, very Second Vatican II, when we observe what you and your colleagues are doing.
Michael Voris: Do you think there is an abuse of the Church’s social doctrine by people in the Church advancing social justice?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: I think yes, and social justice is not the first task of the Church. Otherwise, Jesus would have told the apostles that our first task is to address temporal issues. We must always be faithful to Christ and the apostles because our faith is Catholic and Apostolic. In the time of Jesus and the apostles, there were many social injustices, but it was not the first concern of the Church’s mission. The first concern was to guide souls to heaven. Of course, the Church Fathers spoke when there was social injustice, but it was not the primary task. We must first spread the truth about the will of God and His commandments, and then the world will improve.
If we are concerned primarily with temporal or social issues, this addresses only temporal matters, not eternal destiny. Of course, sin against social justice is also a sin, and the sinner will be judged by God. But this is only one aspect; people must know the truth about Jesus and His commandments. This is our first task: to spread the Gospel, proclaim Christ incarnate. Christ is our Savior; there is no other way to salvation. Teaching about social justice is primarily the mission of the laity. The clergy’s first task is to administer the mysteries of God. As Saint Paul said, we are administrators of the mysteries of God, administratores mysteriorum Dei. This is the first task: to give the mysteries of God, eternal life, and grace through the sacraments and catechesis.
Michael Voris: One last question, Your Excellency. I don’t want to make you late for your flight. You spoke in an interview a year or so ago in London, and you said that this is the fourth great crisis of the Church. The three previous crises, in your view, are what?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, according to my opinion, the first big crisis was, of course, the Arian crisis, Arianism, which is commonly accepted. It was really a general crisis of the Church, extremely grievous. Then the next was the so-called Saeculum Obscurum, the dark century, the ninth and tenth centuries, when the papacy was occupied by immoral people, some of the Roman mafia. In those times, they put their sons on the papal throne. It was truly a dark period, a deep humiliation of the Holy See, but God permitted this.
Next, according to me, was the crisis of the Avignon exile, the exile of Avignon, with the Great Western Schism. It was tremendous to have two popes at the same time, or even three popes. It was a very big crisis. As part of this Avignon crisis, the crisis of the Renaissance papacy. I would include these in some way as a branch: the scandals of the Renaissance popes. The cause was that they adopted the spirit of the world at that time, the humanism, the pagan humanism, which opened the popes to the world.
Today, we face almost a general crisis of relativism reigning inside the Church, doctrinally, morally, and tremendous liturgical anarchy. This is a very grievous crisis for me, but in every crisis, God sends solutions and His instruments. Often, they were simple, hidden realities in the Church, small and unnoticed. Time by time, God renews His Church.
In our time, I can observe in many parts of the world the beginning of the renewal of the Church, slowly but very clearly. This is the work of the Holy Spirit, and nobody can hinder the Holy Spirit, not a cardinal, not a bishop. The Holy Spirit uses the little ones in the Church to renew it. I hope we will proceed with patience and with much faith in this work of renewal for our Holy Mother, the Church.