Michael Matt: Hello again, ladies and gentlemen. Michael Matt with the Catholic Identity Conference. I wanted to give a quick announcement before we start. The Catholic Identity Conference begins later this afternoon, and all of the presentations will be available on video on demand. If you have not signed up yet, please consider going to our website now. There is plenty of time to sign up and have access to all the conferences, including one we are really looking forward to tomorrow night, which is our keynote address delivered by His Excellency Bishop Athanasius Schneider, whom I now have the great honor to present to you in this interview before the conference begins. Your Excellency, welcome. Thank you so much for being with us.
I wanted to begin with something you said to me the last time I saw you in Rome. You gave me great encouragement by saying that we should not fear because the victory has already been won by Jesus Christ. Could you share with our viewers what you mean by that?
Bishop Schneider: We know the phrase in Holy Scripture from Saint John in his epistle. He says, This is the victory over the world, our faith. And this is the Catholic, Apostolic faith which we received from our fathers, our ancestors, and the saints during two thousand years. It is the same faith. We received this. We know this faith in the catechism, in the traditional catechism. And so we are sure of our faith. We know that this faith conquered the entire world because it is not a human opinion, a human faith, or a human theory that can be changed, but it is a divine faith. This gives us strength, conviction, and certainty.
Michael Matt: Following from that, there is so much now that good people see, which fills them with fear. Even though they have supernatural faith in Jesus Christ and in the ultimate triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, there is concern that, in the meantime, when so many people have left the Church and lost the faith because of the scandals they have witnessed, they themselves might succumb and begin to question the Church fundamentally. What do we do to encourage people not to be seduced or discouraged to the point that they leave the Church and do exactly what the devil wants, which is to abandon her?
Bishop Schneider: This would be the biggest mistake, to leave the Church, because the Church is our mother. How can you leave your mother? The Church gave us supernatural life, not the Pope, not the bishop, but Holy Mother Church. We must say to people that the Church is greater than the Pope or the bishop, or the cardinals. They are also members of the Church. The Church is greater. Therefore, we must love our Mother Church even more in this time of her passion.
We must tell people that our Mother Church is now enduring Holy Friday because the Church is the Mystical Body of Christ. By divine permission, God allowed the Church, in the past fifty or sixty years, to enter a real way of the Cross, the Stations of the Cross. And I think that in our current time, we have reached Calvary, Golgotha. Our Mother Church is humiliated as Jesus Christ was, she is in chains as Jesus was tied. And today those who humiliate our Mother the Church are not so much the enemies of the Church, but, incredibly, the clergy, mostly, and even high clergy in the Church. This is the mystery, in some way, of Judas, which God permitted, as our Lord permitted it.
And so we have to be with our Mother Church and say, we will be with you in this time of Calvary, and we will be faithful to our Mother Church by keeping the immutable faith which we know. Why should they leave the Church? It makes no sense to leave the Church because they have the faith. These people who leave the Church know the catechism, they know the saints. They can receive Holy Communion even if they must drive a distance to find a worthy Holy Mass. Many Christians did this and still do this in times of persecution. They have the faith, the catechism, the sacraments. What more do they need?
Their mistake is to identify a concrete holder of an ecclesiastical office, even the Pope or a bishop, completely with the Church. This is the error. We must abandon this very narrow vision of the Church. The Church is larger, greater. We must encourage these faithful by telling them, you will help our Mother Church by staying. Of course, you have the right to resist heresy, even if it comes from your bishop or from the Pope, if he does this, respectfully, not as people without faith. We are not a party that fights with secular or worldly means. We are members of the Mystical Body of Christ, and the Church is ultimately a supernatural reality, not only an organization.
Therefore, we must use other means, not those of political parties or organizations that wage wars. We must use fidelity to the Church, fidelity to the teaching of the Church, and prayer. And we must say to these people, please make reparation for the infidelity and apostasy of, unfortunately, not a few shepherds of the Church in our day.
Michael Matt: Archbishop Vigano, in an interview with Robert Moynihan from Inside the Vatican, said something interesting. He said he believes what is happening in the Church at the highest levels has its roots in 1789, in Freemasonry. On the one hand, it is encouraging to think that there has been a war against the Church from her enemies for hundreds of years, and they still have not won. But can you say something about the roots of all of this? How did the Church reach this point? Do you think Freemasonry played a role in the auto-destruction of the human element of the Church?
Bishop Schneider: It is obvious and logical. Because when we know what Freemasonry is, and we do know what it is, we see that it is the anti Church, exactly the opposite of what Christ founded, His Holy Church. It is the exact opposite, the Church of the enemy of God and specifically of Christ. They present themselves, saying, We are not against religion. Of course, they are not against religion, but they are against the uniqueness and exclusivity of Jesus Christ and His Holy Church, against divine revelation, and so on.
Therefore, every clever and cunning enemy will try to eliminate or destroy their enemy. And the Church has always been declared by Freemasonry, from the beginning of its existence, as the greatest enemy. We have several statements from high-ranking Freemasons throughout history. You cannot deny this. This is not a conspiracy theory. It would be ridiculous to call it that. These are facts and proofs.
The most efficient strategy to harm your enemy is to penetrate inside, like a virus in the body that destroys the immune system and health. And so they did this. First, they fought directly against the Church. During the French Revolution, it was obvious. Then, in different periods of European and Latin American history, many governments were Freemasonic. And then they used a tool to fight Christ on a wide scale, the communist October Revolution. It is proven by documents that Freemasons in Europe gave logistical and financial support for the October Revolution in Russia. Lenin himself was a member of several Freemasonic lodges in Europe, and his close collaborators, by name, were mostly Jewish Freemasons, Russian Jewish Freemasons. This is proven.
They used this tool to fight Christ and the Church, and we witnessed seventy years of communist dictatorships in Russia and in the Warsaw Pact countries, waging war against the Church. And now they have made the next step, even more clever and cunning. They also acted in parallel by penetrating the Church. They did this already in the nineteenth century. We have signs and indications, for example, the famous document of the Alta Vendita. Then they penetrated seminaries and faculties with their liberal ideas. This is relativism, the denial of stable and immutable truth. This is the core of Freemasonic ideology, that the human being is the author of truth and can change it according to his desires.
This is also the core of modernism, the relativism, the complete naturalism, and anthropocentrism. Freemasonry is, by definition, naturalism. It is completely anti-supernatural, anti-revelation. And we see the same marks. I am not saying all modernists were Freemasons, but their way of thinking was very similar. They were contaminated by this way of thinking.
Since then, the modernist movement in the Church penetrated more and more and reached its peak at the Second Vatican Council. They used this Church assembly as a tool to promote ever more their relativistic, anthropocentric, naturalistic theories in theology, in the liturgy, in the life of the Church, in pastoral practice. After the Council, the modernists managed to advance even further. And we cannot exclude that some members of Freemasonry also obtained high-ranking positions in the Church.
Michael Matt: Like Bugnini, perhaps.
Bishop Schneider: Yes, and others who were hidden, maybe this was a parallel group, simply modernists who were not linked with Freemasonry, but they were thinking in a similar way, this naturalistic, relativistic mode, and already convinced Freemasons in the ranks of the Episcopacy and the Cardinals and others, maybe even nuncios, helped the modernist clergy who were not Freemasons but had similar thinking. They promoted them to high positions in the Church. It is evident that this is a strategy, and with this pontificate, we are witnessing how, without blunting, without shame, real heretics, deniers of the Catholic truth, are not only promoted to high-ranking Church offices, but are in some way even given a reward for their betrayal of Christ, for promoting the spirit of this world in the Church.
Michael Matt: You mentioned the word uniqueness, that Freemasonry has a problem with the uniqueness or supremacy of the Catholic Church, and you have been such a champion of communion on the tongue, of retaining reverence for our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament. Do you think that Communion in the hand, whether everyone responsible for that was aware of it or not, came into this idea of reducing the uniqueness of the Church? If enough of the Catholic faithful begin to lose faith in the Real Presence, then we become very much like Protestants. Was Communion in the hand, in other words, one of the ways of equalizing all religions? The Catholic Church is no longer believed in. Seventy-five percent of American Catholics, for example, don’t believe in Christ’s Real Presence. Does that play a part in reducing the uniqueness of the Church?
Bishop Schneider: It is a part. I think yes, this relativistic, modernistic spirit, which was already reigning in faculties and theological faculties and in the Episcopacy, is substantially also Protestant, because it seeks to make the Church like others, not unique in the sense of divine revelation. First, we must touch the heart of the Church, and this is the Holy Eucharist, the heart. When we relativize the heart of the Church, we can relativize other truths. They started a general attack on the mystery of the Eucharist, first with the radical, revolutionary changing of the Mass, to make it more acceptable to Protestants. After the publication of the Novus Ordo, several Protestant pastors affirmed that this was very close to their thinking. Some even said we could take the Novus Ordo and celebrate it, but only with the second Eucharistic Prayer, the short one, which expresses the minimum of Catholic doctrine. This was the first attack to relativize the Eucharist, the sacrificial character of the Holy Mass, which is the uniqueness of Catholic doctrine, and of course, also of the Orthodox Church. We are united in the truth about the sacrificial, fundamental, and essential character of the Holy Mass.
It shifted to the banquet and meal theory of Martin Luther in the way the Novus Ordo was celebrated, even in the texts. Then, in 1969, Paul VI permitted Communion in the hand. This was a direct attack on the truth because, by taking Our Lord in such a simple, ordinary manner, as if it were a cake or ordinary meal, it weakens the conviction of a person and belief that this is something special, not ordinary, which cannot be treated like an ordinary meal. This practice weakened belief in the Real Presence, Transubstantiation, the divinity of Christ in the small hosts, and the sacredness of the Eucharist, including the care for fragments, which often fall and are trampled. This was also an attack on the Mass, desacralizing the Holy of Holies, the heart of the Church. Surely, this was the intent of Freemasons and enemies of the Church, to hit the heart of the Church through this practice. Many people were instructed to do this innocently, without guilt, because they did not know another way to receive Holy Communion. The responsibility and guilt lie with the clergy and ultimately Pope Paul VI, who permitted this. Even when he said he was against it, he allowed it. It is like someone burning your house while you say, “I am against it,” but do nothing to stop it. Paul VI opened the door to this tragedy of Communion, with all its consequences.
Michael Matt: So we see from that that it would be a mistake for anyone to attach full blame for what is happening in the Church right now to Pope Francis. This has been a long time coming. You just wrote a statement against what happened in Rome. We were both in Rome recently watching the unfolding of the Amazon Synod, and you wrote an excellent statement against Pachamama, citing Psalm 79. That comes close to resisting Pope Francis himself. In the statement you wrote, have you ever envisioned having to make a statement like that, where you would be essentially standing against the Holy Father, which no Catholic ever wants to do?
Bishop Schneider: I never imagined that I would one day, publicly or privately, ask the Holy Father to condemn acts that he supports, as with the Abu Dhabi statement on the equality or diversity of all religions, and now with these acts of idolatry in the Vatican. I could never imagine having to defend the First Commandment in the Church, the most basic commandment, that idolatry is against divine revelation, that you cannot perform acts of idolatry in the Catholic Church. This is, for me, the peak of all the evils accumulating over the past century, demonstrating the extent to which evil, apostasy, and betrayal of Christ have penetrated the Church. Unfortunately, Pope Francis defends the veneration of these Pachamama idols, claiming there was no idolatrous intention. But we cannot see the heart; we can only observe exterior acts. The acts were clearly religious cult acts, vowing, revering, and praying towards a wooden statue, not representing a saint but a goddess concept in indigenous South American culture. This is clearly idolatry. We must ask the Pope to condemn this and make acts of reparation, starting with a prayer service in St. Peter’s Basilica and also in the Church of Transpontina.
Evil has a logic; it seeks its culmination. When one truth is denied, obscured, or presented ambiguously, it spreads like a virus. If not resisted, it conquers the body like cancer, spreading from a single cell. We now see the evil of doctrinal relativism and ambiguity, already present partly in some expressions of the Second Vatican Council, such as the ideas that we are all together with Muslims under one God, that man is the center of all that exists, or that we have a natural right to choose religion. The Council text also says every person has the obligation to seek the truth, which is the Catholic Church, but it simultaneously speaks of freedom of religion rooted in human nature.
Michael Matt: This is all from the Second Vatican Council.
Bishop Schneider: Yes, this is in the text of Dignitatis Humanae. It is ambiguous. It is not clear. The consequences after the Council were that in almost all Catholic seminaries and theological faculties, in the Episcopal office, and even in the Holy See, the doctrine was promoted that a person has a right to choose his religion. No, you have no right to choose idolatry. You have no right to offend God through ideology, idolatry, or blasphemy. This is already rooted here. If you have a right given by God by nature, it does not extend to acts of idolatry like the Pachamama. When it is rooted in the dignity of man, it does not include choosing a Pachamama religion. This is the consequence of this expression in the Council text. I repeat, the expression is ambiguous. It should have been formulated differently to avoid these applications in the life of the Church, which we saw in the 1986 meeting of Pope John Paul II and others, where even idolatrous religions were invited to pray in their own manner for peace.
We already see these moments present, but now, what we witnessed in the Vatican, the formal performance of idolatrous acts in St. Peter, in the heart of the Catholic Church, is the triumph of evil in this manner. We have to pray, make reparation, and implore the divine intervention of God, and He will intervene because it is His Church, not ours. The Church is not in our hands. Today, many Catholics have the temptation to take it into their hands and resolve it themselves. That is human behavior, suitable for a party or organization, but not for the Church. The head of the Church is Christ.
Some say, we will declare the Pope no longer Pope for several reasons, or the See of Peter vacant, or Pope Benedict the true Pope. These solutions are human and will not clarify anything but create confusion. We must stay, even under the Golgotha of the Church. The Church will resurrect if we have faith. Golgotha is not the last station; resurrection follows. And then comes the resurrection, and often, when the enemies think they are powerful, proud of what they did in the Church, destroying the Catholic faith and liturgy, adapting the Church completely to the world, even to paganism, God will show them they are foolish. As Our Lady says in the Magnificat, He deposes the powerful from their throne and exalts the humble, the little ones in the Church. This will come. We must believe and have the supernatural spirit. We must form a spiritual army of prayers, acts of reparation. This is our army and our weapon, along with public acts of profession of faith, defending our faith, and apologetics. We must train in the spirit of the militant Church, even in the spirit of martyrdom. We must be prepared to be persecuted with the entire Church.
This will bring the true flourishing of the Church. We should not fear this short life on Earth. St. Paul writes that if we believe in Christ only in this life, we would be the most unhappy people on Earth. We must trust that our homeland is heaven and that God will reward all we have done with a sincere heart and pure intention for His kingdom, even if we suffer more than we triumph. This will bring heavenly glory and happiness and contribute to the restoration and renewal of the Church.
We must have confidence, inner joy in the midst of darkness. I know to whom I belong. I belong to the army of the winners, of the conquerors, because Christ is our chief. He is Christ the King, and we are all His spiritual soldiers. Our Lady conquered all heresies. We are happy to be in the army of Jesus Christ, the King, and children of Our Lady, our heavenly mother, who destroys all heresy and gave us her Immaculate Heart as our refuge, especially in these difficult times and in her messages at Fatima.
We will continue to love our Mother Church, not abandon her, implore divine intervention in God’s time, and pray for the Pope, our Holy Father, that he may have the supernatural vision of his ministry, independent of who occupies the office. We will be faithful to the Cathedral of St. Peter and even ready to give our lives for the truth of the primacy of Peter and his successors, because this is the divine constitution of the Church. We will pray for the Pope, that God may fill him with His spirit and touch his heart. We are his best friends. Each of us must save our own soul and also have love for our neighbor and for Pope Francis, imploring that our prayers may bring him consolation when he stands before God.
We hope he will remember the little souls who prayed for him and showed supernatural love. We pray that God may fill him with the true spirit of St. Peter and all the holy and martyr popes, that he may recognize the dangers, errors, and ambiguities he collaborated in over the years. We say, Most Holy Father, we are your best friends and desire only the best for you, that you may save your soul and act faithfully as a successor of the holy popes, defending Christ and the truth, even to the extent of giving your life for the truth. Not for Mother Earth, climate change, Pachamama, or the ideas and agenda of partly apostatized clergy. Not for female ordinations or changing the apostolic rule of priestly celibacy. Give your life for Christ, defending the treasure He gave you.
Bishop Schneider: All the little ones in the Church who love the Church will continue to pray for the Church, for the Pope, and for the triumph of Christ the King and the Immaculate Heart of our Heavenly Mother.
Michael Matt: It’s beautiful. You brought a tear to my eye just listening to the voice of the Church that comes through your words. You’ve also anticipated all my questions, but I would be remiss if I allowed this interview to conclude without mentioning your book. It seems providential, the timing and the title. Christopher, I know you don’t have much time. The book is literally a page-turner. It makes me regret the fact that “page-turner” is a cliche. This one actually is. You can learn so much, and the way it is set up, it’s so readable. Tell me briefly for our viewers so they can run out and order this book right away. The title, I mean, is it not about the point where we may not have all the answers to the scandal we are seeing, but what we need to do now is cling to the kingship of Christ and to the old faith, stand at the foot of the cross, and wait for God to save His Church? Is that kind of what went into the title of your book, this idea of the kingdom of Christ?
Bishop Schneider: Yes, the title “Christopher Wendt” means Christ triumphs, Christ wins. I chose this title to give hope, consolation, and strength to Catholics in these difficult times, even in distress and despair, who have no orientation, to give them a sense of trust that even in the midst of darkness, there are lights, even small lights, signs of hope, and especially the immutable beauty of the Catholic Church. My intent in the book was to present the immutable, ever-young, unchanging beauty of the Catholic faith, the Catholic liturgy, and the Catholic saints. I concluded my book with a vision of the Eucharist, that from the Holy Eucharist, from the Holy Mass, victory will come.
Now we are witnessing the Latin Mass, the traditional Mass. I call this the Mass of all ages, the constant form of the Roman Rite, not the extraordinary but the constant, ever-growing, and attracting young people, even children. This is a sign that the beauty of the Church cannot be ultimately destroyed, not even by a Pope. The Church is stronger than unfaithful clergy. My intention in the book was to transmit the beauty of our Mother Church and give hope that Christ triumphs.
Michael Matt: Praise Jesus. Thank you so much for the time you shared with us today. I’m grateful to God that we have princes of the Church who are still leading us in devotion to the Church, to the Church’s Holy Mother, and to Christ the King. Thank you. God bless your work.
Bishop Schneider: And also thank you for what you are doing for the Church. We do need more lights of the Catholic faith.
Michael Matt: Thanks very much. I’m Michael Matt with Bishop Athanasius Schneider here in Pittsburgh at the Catholic Identity Conference. God bless you, and we’ll see you next time.