Timothy S. Flanders: Jesus is King. Welcome to the One Peter Five Podcast, rebuilding Christendom, restoring Catholic culture and tradition. I’m Timothy Flanders, the editor of One Peter Five. We are honored today with the virtual presence of His Excellency, Bishop Athanasius Schneider. Bishop Schneider, it’s an honor to have you on the show today. We’ll be talking about your newest book, The Catholic Mass: Steps to Restore the Centrality of God in the Liturgy, which is certainly a pertinent topic and central to our hearts and souls here at One Peter Five. We will also get your comments on the recent news regarding Fatima and Russia in just a minute. Your Excellency, would you begin this with a prayer for us, please?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes. In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen.
Pater noster, qui es in caelis, sanctificetur nomen tuum; adveniat regnum tuum; fiat voluntas tua, sicut in caelo et in terra. Panem nostrum quotidianum da nobis hodie; et dimitte nobis debita nostra, sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris; et ne nos inducas in tentationem; sed libera nos a malo. Amen.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen.
Timothy S. Flanders: Amen. Thank you, Your Excellency. I’d like to begin the conversation about your book with this striking photo on the cover, which is a high Mass in the ruins of Germany, a war-torn scene. Can you tell us about this photo and why it is significant?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, it is a photo from June 1946 in the city of Münster in Westphalia, in North Rhine-Westphalia, in the cathedral of the city, where Cardinal von Galen, who is blessed and was beatified by the Church, presided. He heroically resisted Hitler during the Nazi era and defended the truth. This cathedral was bombed, as one can see in the photo, and part of the apse was destroyed. Stones from the church and surrounding houses are visible. Nevertheless, in the midst of chaos and ruins, the Church continued to celebrate a solemn Mass. I consider this photo very significant and timely for our situation now in the Church. It is, for me, a symbol that expresses our current situation. We are now in the Church, without doubt, in the midst of spiritual ruin and destruction, especially in the liturgical life in so many parishes and convents. But God calls us not to be discouraged, to continue with confidence and joy to celebrate the traditional liturgy, the ancient rite of the Church, the Mass of all ages, not referring to the details of the rite, but to the spirit and atmosphere of this traditional form. Through our fidelity to the tradition, God will rebuild His Church and His liturgy.
Timothy S. Flanders: I love the photo because it really illustrates what you just said, and it also captures the essence of your work, which is a powerful spiritual reflection for our time. You have 12 chapters that are reflections on different aspects of the Mass, without shying away from controversies. I wanted to start with a quote from chapter five, The Mass as Splendor, which is very much shown in this photo. You say on page 124: “The Holy Mass is a splendor of beauty, in the first place because of the Beauteous splendor, divine, spiritual, and moral, of the supreme act of Christ’s own sacrifice. This beauty must then necessarily be manifested in the rite itself, and in sacred art and sacred buildings, since their ultimate purpose is to manifest the beauty of God and the glory of His redemptive work.” How do we enter into that beauty in a time when there are these spiritual ruins, Your Excellency?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, we simply have to rediscover the liturgy itself, the richness contained in the traditional liturgy, and all the other liturgical treasures of the Church, including Gregorian chant and the other rites. We have to be faithful, keep these rites, celebrate them, promote their celebration, and deepen our knowledge of these texts. We must celebrate with a deeper awareness of this treasure. I decided to publish this book to share with the faithful and priests what a great treasure we have in this liturgy.
Timothy S. Flanders: Yes, you continue by commenting on the Novus Ordo. You say that the Novus Ordo suffers from a serious deficiency in expressing the splendor and beauty of the Divine Liturgy. Why is it so deficient in this beauty?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: It is evident that it is simply as it is by the structure of the Novus Ordo itself. Of course, one can, I concede, celebrate the Novus Ordo also in a very wealthy and beautiful manner. One can celebrate the Novus Ordo ad Oriente. It is not forbidden. One can celebrate the novice order entirely in Latin with Gregorian Chant without female altar girls or lay ministers of Eucharist, and so on, all this stuff. It’s not necessary for the novice order. We can, we can avoid this. And so it could be done. But the text itself in the novice order, even if we will celebrate this in such an atmosphere, a traditional shape, the texts itself themselves in the in the little in Novus Ordo are poor in comparison with the traditional liturgy.
There are fewer, so they are reduced to prayers, especially at the beginning of the Mass. There is so little space at the beginning, so there is almost no room. Pedagogically, to prepare to enter the holiness of the sanctuary. Way straight away, the sign of the cross and a very short confiture, and so and it is, but the traditional right introduces all the cellular brands, with the Psalm 42 with the double and longer configure, and with the prayers of climbing up the steps, and so on. This is so helpful and so necessary for the priest and the people to prepare their souls for this most holy moment here on Earth, the sacrifice of the cross and so and especially the oratory prayers. It is a very serious defect in the Novus Ordo. They are expressing almost nothing about the sacrifice, but rather the communion service or and they are spiritually in comparison with the traditional operatory prayers, very poor and so and then the gestures, even as I repeat, you can celebrate the tradition, the novos, or the inner traditional shape at Orient. They meant letting, but in comparison with the traditional mass, for example, they have a few genuflections of the priest during the canon, then very few signs of the cross. And this is a little bit diminishing the atmosphere of a more solemn and a more sublime and sacred form. This is the fact.
Timothy S. Flanders: Yes, you mention in your chapter on the Mass as adoration that this is often promoted in the Novus Ordo, which has a bigger lectionary and is more didactic. But you note on page 33 that it is not only about the intellect, but also about the heart. We see the beauty of the truth that urges us to love the Eucharistic Christ even more. Can you speak on this adoration, which is even more important than catechesis?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Well, catechesis is important, of course, and this is also a lack in our time, a good catechesis, because without a good knowledge of the faith, you cannot pray in the right way. But the issue is not this. The place of catechesis is not, at first, in the Holy Mass. The Holy Mass is primarily the adoration of the Most Holy Trinity through the presence of the sacrifice of the cross. Our first task here on Earth, and in heaven, is to adore God, the Holy Trinity, with all the angels and all the redeemed creation.
Therefore, this must be stressed properly in the celebration of the Holy Mass. The catechetical aspect is secondary in the Mass. It is important, of course, but should be organized outside the Mass. There is a tendency in some circles to turn the Mass into a kind of catechesis lesson, emphasizing intellectual aspects excessively, for example, reading a wide variety of difficult biblical texts. This is not didactical or pedagogical. We can do more extensive Bible reading outside the Mass, such as in the Divine Office, where priests and religious read almost the entire Bible throughout the year.
During the Mass, it is sufficient to focus on the most important passages of the Old and New Testaments and concentrate on the sacrifice being celebrated. The biblical aspect is another liturgy, it is THE LITURGY OF THE Breviary. So the Divine Office, the Divine Office is more the appropriate place to read, and in the Divine Office, almost the entire Bible is read by the priests and the monks, and the religious. They read the Bible during the lessons of the Matthews, for example, throughout the year. And this is also a possibility. This is another place of knowing and reading more extensively the words of God by the Holy Mass, we should restore the primary extent of that. This is the adoration and the sacrifice of Golgotha present here to concentrate ourselves more than this.
Timothy S. Flanders: Yes, as you say on page 168, the Church has united in a single sacred action the two aspects of worship from the Old Testament: offering the sacrifice, as in the temple, and proclaiming and hearing the Word, as in the synagogues. It would seem that the Novus Ordo emphasizes the synagogue portion somewhat at the expense of the temple. Some people quote Auctorem Fidei from Pius VI to say the Pope cannot promulgate deficient rites. How can faithful Catholics critique the Novus Ordo while remaining faithful?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Well, I think we have to enter the auditorium, feed a ball of Pope Pius the six. This expression is not an infallible expression. It’s simply a statement. We also have to distinguish that not every expression of a pope, even of a good Pope, is infallible in itself, so and has to be interpreted well, in a wise manner. So this is not to say that a pope cannot promulgate efficient right. Maybe he was thinking heretical rights this, I agree. But deficient is an expression that we can understand in different ways.
Even deficient could be really not so perfect, and this is possible simply by the fact, for example, in the 16th century, there was a cardinal in Rome, a Spanish Cardinal, who completely proposed a new form of privacy, the divine office, destroying the entire traditional breviary, its also liturgy. And proposed a new liturgical form of divine office, completely made at the table, and with a completely revolutionary form. And this is, of course, a deficiency. It was a deficient form of liturgy, but of divine office, liturgy and and the popes of that time approved these two popes, until Pope Paul this, the fourth, prohibited this.
Then, thanks be to God, such a non-anti-traditional, I would say, Divine Office. And therefore, unfortunately, God permitted that Paul the Sixth approved, really a deficient form of the Roman right, Eucharistic liturgy and other and all the other rights are deficient, but not heretical. We have to stress this, not heretical, but deficient, evidently deficient. And we have to pray that the church again restores the traditional form universally, maybe in the future they can keep some elements of the liturgical reform of politics, which are in themselves meaningful and helpful. We cannot say that all that politics did is 100% wrong. It would be exaggerated. There are maybe some moments that we can say are possible to maintain, but the main form should be the traditional form that the church had in all the sacraments.
Timothy S. Flanders: That’s a very good point. Your Excellency. The breviary of Paul the Third, as I understand it, and I believe el Quinn read in organic development of liturgy, makes mention of the fact that Annibali Bunini had some admiration for this breviary in the 16th century that was later reversed. That’s a very good point. Now I really like what you say. What you said in the beginning about not getting discouraged. You pay talk on page 37 about how, even though the Novus Ordo diminished and weakened gestures of adoration in the Mass, you say that divine providence, especially in the 70s and 80s, prompted a new movement of Eucharistic Adoration and the establishment of Perpetual Adoration chapels in various countries. How do you see divine providence working over these past few decades, even in a even this period of spiritual destruction?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Exactly, we know that God is always present in his church, and God never abandons his church in difficult times. And so the church is in the hands of God. We have to stress this, even in our time so difficult, and therefore, since the year 65 when the Wendt Council ended and they began, already the plans of Bugnini commission to destroy, in some way, our traditional liturgy, got awakened our movement of lay people, the so called una voce organization, to keep the traditional treasure, or liturgical treasure, of the church, special that Latin language and the traditional right and this slave movement is so meritorious for me, and remains a heroic page in the history of the recent church, and an honor for the late of the Catholic laity.
So it was an a movement of the late lay people, not of the clergy in the first time, and they have a great merit that the conscience in the difficult years, or in the end, in the 70s and the 80s, to restore the traditional mass was kept in the church and promoted, and this was a help that, then, to my opinion, the work of the unavoce organization that in 84 John Paul the second permitted the first, gave the first permission to celebrate again The traditional mass with some limitations. But even though, and then they helped to spread, and then there were other organizations of lay people, after une voce, and of priests. And this is, for me, a sign of the work of the Holy Spirit.
It, and also, after samorum Pontificum in 2007 the traditional mass started, I would say the triumphant course in the church, slowly and attracting so many young people, the youth so that it I would say the traditional mass became, in the last maybe 15 years, or 2015, years, the youth mass, for the young people and the children mass. So because in the in the traditional masses, they have a great part of the participants are young people and even children, families with children, and this is a sign of hope and of the true renewal of the church.
Timothy S. Flanders: Yes, thank God. And regarding Fatima, you have connected it to the liturgy. In 2020, you called for a crusade of Eucharistic reparation, citing the Angel of Fatima. How does this relate to the liturgy?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, it is also very clear that the apparition of the angel one year before Our Lady appeared, we know God sent the angel to, and this is connected to the message of the angel of Fatima, of Our Lady. It’s to my opinion, it constitutes a great message for our time and the reparation. Our Lady also spoke then to Sister Lucia about the necessity of the reparation Holy Communion on the First Saturdays this and then she spoke repeatedly of the necessity to do atonement, reparation for the sins against her Immaculate Heart and other sins. But the angel spoke already before about the most important reparation. It is one of the sins against the Eucharist over the body, the Eucharistic Body and Blood of Christ.
And he spoke these words to the children, console your God, who is so horribly outraged in this sacrament. So this is a voice to our day console your God, who is so horribly so the angel used the word horribly outraged, desecrated in the sacrament. This continues. I think we have to take very much at serious these words and this appeal of the angel very seriously. And in those times, for sure, there were in the Catholic parishes, almost no forms of outrages and desecrations sacrilegious of the Sacrament of the Eucharist. There was no communion in hand in 1916, and no lay ministers, and so on.
Therefore, the words of the angel were prophetic. Prophetic spoken in view, I believe, to our times especially, and therefore, it is necessary to make a crusade all over the world and increase these to console our Lord in the Eucharist and to make prayers of atonement. This is necessary. This is our task. When we love our Lord in the Eucharist, we won’t. We are compelled to console him because we are witnessing, before our eyes, really desecrations and sacrilegious acts in mass all over the world in the Latin Church, at least.
Timothy S. Flanders: Yes, and thank you, Your Excellency, for this movement. This is what we promote at One Peter Five every month, calling everyone to join this crusade of Eucharistic reparation. In particular, it involves comm. Getting to one month of Eucharistic Adoration, or one hour of Eucharistic Adoration per month in reparation, also promoting a yearly day of reparation in your diocese, and other things, you can see the link below for joining the crusade of Eucharistic reparation. I’d like to have your comments, your comments, your Excellenc,y on the consecration of Russia. This is a liturgical act as well that was called for by Our Lady of Fatima, a liturgical act by the pope of consecration in union with all the bishops. Now it’s being done on a liturgical feast, the Feast of Denunciation. It’s happening at a time of renewed violence and bloodshed over Kievan Rus. I would like to point all readers to your written comments with Diane Montana. Those are linked below. Can we have any other comments now about the consecration of Russia tomorrow?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: First, of course, we have to be grateful to God that finally Pope Francis is doing this in these difficult times. And as we see, he is fulfilling the essential requests of Our Lady. This is the mention of Russia explicitly. This act is done in union with the bishops of the world, and the explicit mention of the consecration to the Immaculate Heart. So not only consecrated to Our Lady, which John Paul the Second did when we analyzed the formulas. He said, Oh, Mother of God, we entrust to you. This was the verse of John Paul the Second. He was not formally, directly in his expression, consecrated to the Immaculate Heart. But he mentioned Immaculate Heart, but not in this crucial moment to entrust. And he only entrusts to you.
So there were before now our 2022 consecration, which will take place tomorrow. There were two acts of the popes related to the request of Our Lady of Fatima. The first was in 52 by Pope Pius the 12th, where he wrote in his apostolic letter in 52 that we consecrate today to the Immaculate Heart of the Mother of God, the peoples in plural, so not only the people, the peoples of Russia. Well, Russia really has so many different nations, you know, until now, and in that time, also in 1917 and in 52, there were different nations or peoples in Russia. And so Pius the 12 used people, not Russia, but people of Russia. But he did not observe all the requests of Our Lady. He did this alone, without the union of the bishops, the episcopate, the Catholic. So then, if 40 in 84 John Paul the Second, did this in union with all the bishops, but did not mention Russia explicitly, and in his formula, it was not directly expressed to the Immaculate Heart.
The formula itself, the words in, because the prayer was a very long prayer of John Paul the Second, where he mentioned, of course, the Immaculate Heart. But I repeat, the essential moment when it came to the expression was to the Mother of God. And so we see this is deficient in some way. And now, when we compare the formula already published yesterday for this consecration tomorrow by Pope Francis, they are, this is the most explicit formula that has been done until now. He, because Pope Francis first, summoned all the bishops of the world, and even wrote a letter to every bishop. It is in I also got to the nuncio tour, a copy of the letter to every bishop of the world. And this is a very important person with his signature, Pope Francis wrote, and then in the formula, he says, We solemnly, even the word solemnly was lacking in 84 John Paul the second did not use the form solemnly. And Pius the 12 also did not use this. But John Pope Francis says, We solemnly entrust and consecrate. So he used two words, entrust and consecrate to your Immaculate Heart directly.
And then he says, ourselves, the entire world of humanity, and especially Russia and Ukraine. So it is the most to, in my opinion, perfect form which is possible. And I think it’s it fulfills the substantial request they mentioned, this additional mention of ourselves to consecrate. It will not evidently invalidate the consecration, because we should ourselves consecrate and the entire humanity to the Immaculate Heart, because she is the mother of all. And to mention Ukraine. It is meaningful, because in 1917 our when our Lady spoke of Russia, the current today, territory of Russia of Ukraine was part of Russia. So our lady had before her eyes. This also includes this territory, which is today called Ukraine. And therefore, if our lady would, if the Pope would, today, consecrate only Russia, so this territory will be lacking which our lady had before her eyes, also in 1970, and besides the it is evident it’s in such a conflict between these countries and the Pope could not one-sidedly only mention Russia. It is simply common sense and justice to mention both.
And it corresponds, I repeat, to the picture which our lady had in 1970 substantially, and therefore we cannot, I think, the people, even pious people, make an error. Their approach to this issue is in a very legalistic form. But this is not fitting for a private revelation. It’s still a private revelation, Fatima. It’s not a public revelation. We have to distinguish, and we cannot treat the request of the formulations of Our Lady like a dogma, which we cannot change one word, or like a sacramental form of a sacrament, which we cannot change. It is simply that our lady gave us these elements, elements substantial, and in her humility she she, she left this to the decision of the Pope, who is the head of the church, and the authority to but keeping the elements the most important, and now Pope Francis kept to the joining some other expressions which are not essential, but additional. So, this is clear that we are not Pharisees and scribes, that you can not change one letter. I repeat, you must not exaggerate this. And I repeat, it’s not public revelation. It’s not a sacramental form.
And our lady did not give us a form. She left this to the church, and so And recently, also, some people are concerned about one expression in the prayer, where the pope there is a part where are some titles of Our Lady, Queen of Peace, and so on. And then it’s a title of Earth of Heaven. And it’s now that I compared in different languages, translated in different ways. So in our we got from the nuncia to. The Russian text, text of the consecration. And this expression is translated as heavenly Earth. In German, it is translated as also more or less, in this sense, not earth of heaven, but a new Earth, renewed in some way. So it is a different expression, so they cannot fix only one. And it could be interpreted, in my opinion, sudden to my opinion, when I was with this not usual expression, Earth of heaven, but maybe it expresses the idea of new heaven and new earth, which we have in the Holy Scripture, God will create a new earth and a new heaven. So it is a new earth by grace.
This expression could be interpreted this expression. So we have to interpret this in a benevolent way, not straight away, in saying this is a pagan expression of Pachamama and so on. I think it is far-fetched, and we have to interpret, always in a religious context, the closest possible positive spiritual expression. For example, there are different poetic expressions in so many songs, traditional songs about our lady, like You are the new garden. These are traditional songs. You are the new garden of heaven. So new garden, or garden of heaven, it is you can find in traditional songs of Our Lady. And so, garden of heaven, or earth of heaven, it’s close. And so, in this sense, as a new garden of heaven and so on, we can interpret this, which some people now are concerned about, this one expression, Tierra del cielo, the CL, and so but I repeat, we have to interpret this in a benevolent and in a Catholic way. When this is possible, it’s not in itself, such in itself. It’s not heretical or pagan in itself. We can interplay this and repeat in a Catholic way.
Timothy S. Flanders: Okay. Well, thank you so much. Your Excellency, yes, and so interpreting things in a benevolent way, piously, not legalistically. Lastly, the last question, speaking on the liturgy, as we have Eucharistic reparation. This is the visual of the Annunciation now and the vigil of the consecration. How do you How can the faithful? How can we spiritually prepare ourselves for really abandoning ourselves to divine providence, and what may come with this consecration?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Well, we are living in faith, not in vision. We are continuing to be in the valley of tears. This is what we sing in Salve Regina, in hac lacrimárum valle. We are still on the way on the pilgrimage. We are not yet at home. And St Augustine said the church is going until Christ comes amidst tribulations, but he added and consolations of God in the midst of tribulations and consolations of God, this is our way. So, and then our Lord said to the apostles, in the Acts of the Apostles, it is not upon you to know the times established by my father. It is not upon us. The consecration will not have an immediate automatic effect. It is never so. And this would be a wrong understanding, even of the Catholic faith, and it would be a kind of magical understanding. This is wrong. It is not saying it is an act of faith.
And the time when our Lady promised the effects of concrete conversion of Russia, a time of peace for humanity. It will come in a way which we don’t know, and in a time established by God, and therefore we continue to believe in peace. It is, in my opinion, a very simplistic, simplistic way of these people, and a kind of a. Maybe also, not to carry the cross and the difficulties. Maybe I will, don’t I will not see the effect of the concert, of the conversion, of Russia and of the peace in my lifetime, maybe after me, but it will come because our Lady promised, and finally, the Pope did in a substantial way, but she asked, and the rest, let we give to God’s hand. It’s not important that tomorrow we will shout the triumph that will come again. This is not saying for Catholics to think in such a way.
Timothy S. Flanders: Well, that’s great wisdom, Your Excellency, the readiness to carry the cross even when, if and when the Triumph does come, we know it will come. We don’t know when exactly or how exactly, in terms of how it exactly comes about, but that’s great wisdom for us to take into tomorrow and the consecration and into what may come in Ukraine and all the wars and however many days, weeks, months, or years this may take to all be effective in God’s good timing. So, Your Excellency, thank you so much for your time today. Once again, everyone, please buy this fantastic text. It really is a marvelous spiritual reading and meditation on the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. I thank you so much for your Excellency. Would you please give us a blessing to end this conversation?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Dominus vobiscum.
Timothy S. Flanders: Et cum spiritu tuo.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Benedictio Dei omnipotentis Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti descendat super vos et maneat. Amen.
Praise be Jesus Christ!
Timothy S. Flanders: Now and forever!