Dr. Taylor Marshal: You were selected by, I think it was the congregation of a doctrine of faith, correct me if I’m wrong, to be a visitator for the Society of St Pius the 10th. You talked about this in a chapter of your book, Christus Vint, and I would encourage everyone to read this book. Christopher Vincent, it is an interview account with His Excellency, and I can’t stress how powerful this book is. You’re excellent. I wept in the opening chapters as you described your childhood, your parents, the environment and habitat of faith in which you grew up in a persecuted society and culture.
In the book, you talk about your encounter as a visitator of the Society of St Pius the 10th and their seminary life. Could you speak to that? What is the status? A lot of people ask, what’s the status of the Society of St Pius the 10th? Is it schismatic? Is it irregular? Is it not recognized? Can you share what you shared in the book and maybe add anything more?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Firstly, we have to ask, what is schismatic? According to the tradition of the church, schismatic refers to people who are refusing in principle the authority of the Pope. Let us say the Orthodox. They are usually called not heretics but schismatics because they reject in principle the authority of the Pope. The fact of Episcopal ordination without papal approval, in the old canon law, was not punished automatically with excommunication. Only in the new code of canon law did this change. So for many centuries, the church did not consider ordaining someone a bishop without the approval of the Pope a schismatic act. Church history shows us that, for example, in the entire first millennium, the majority of bishops were ordained without asking Rome for approval. They simply ordained bishops while maintaining unity with the Pope, mentioning him in the Eucharistic prayer or consulting the Pope in some way, thus maintaining unity.
Saints we know, like St Athanasius and St Basil, were not ordained with papal approval, and there are many more examples. Therefore, this does not pertain to the deposit of faith. The act of ordination can be done in different ways. In an emergency situation, which in my opinion is the situation we are living in even after the introduction of the new Mass, which is substantially a kind of Protestantization of the center of our life, the Holy Mass, even if it is celebrated correctly, the texts of the new Mass itself, like the prayers of the canon and so on, are Protestantizing without doubt. But continuing your question, my answer is this: Archbishop Lefebvre did not have a true schismatic intention when he ordained bishops because he asked the Pope for approval until the last moment. Usually, schismatic bishops do not care about the Pope.
Dr. Taylor Marshal: Of the Pope, yeah, the Eastern Orthodox don’t write to Rome.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Even others, like the vacantists or others, do not want to ask the Pope for permission. But Archbishop Lefebvre wrote several letters until the last moment, with much respect and reverence, asking for approval to ordain them with the approval of Rome. This demonstrates that he did not act with schismatic intention. It is obvious, and we have to be just and fair, in view of the great tradition of the church. He also mentioned the Pope during the ordination of the bishops, in the canon of the Mass, which proves that he maintained the desire to be united with Rome. In specific historical difficult situations, he could not act any other way. He did this not to create a new parallel church, as he said, but to provide real help and service for the Roman Church itself, for the Popes, who in the future, God knows, will thank him for this. I am sure this will happen, and now we are beginning to see it.
After Pope Benedict XVI lifted the excommunication penalty in 2009, they were no longer excommunicated. When people are not excommunicated, they are not schismatic. Otherwise, the Church would not revoke the penalty. This initially applied only to the four bishops, not the priests. Strictly according to canon law, priests and bishops may have been suspended from celebrating Mass because they had no incardination. But now the situation has changed, because Pope Francis granted all the priests of the Society of St Pius the 10th the ordinary faculties for confession. How can a suspended priest be an ordinary confessor? It is a contradiction. Therefore, in my opinion, Pope Francis implicitly lifted the canonical suspension and also allowed them to assist at marriages canonically. How can a suspended priest assist canonically at a marriage? The Holy See provided that in some cases, a priest of the Society of St Pius the 10th can assist at a marriage and celebrate Mass for the spouses if no other priest is available. How can the Pope permit a suspended priest to celebrate Mass publicly? We must acknowledge that, at this moment, he is not suspended.
It is absurd to think that while hearing confessions, a priest is not suspended, but when he celebrates Mass, he is suspended. We are interpreting the law in such a strict manner that we become Pharisees and scribes, forgetting that church law is pastoral. All these laws aim at the salvation of souls. If we stress only the human part of the law, we become positivists and forget the eternal salvation of souls, adopting the mentality of the Pharisees and scribes, which Christ condemned. I consider this a substantial new situation for the Society of St Pius X, after the lifting of the excommunication of the bishops, the granting of general faculties for confession, and the permission to assist at marriages and celebrate Mass for spouses. Bishops around the world also publicly allow priests of the Society of St Pius the 10th to celebrate public Masses in exceptional cases. Many bishops and priests commit blasphemies and sacrilegious acts in Mass publicly and are not punished. They harm and offend our Lord and damage the faith and the Church more than the priests of the Society, who celebrate Mass piously, as always, only because some problems with the positive law of the Church have not yet been resolved in this extreme situation we are living in.
Dr. Taylor Marshal: I remember Archbishop Lefebvre said, I read this, that in England, they allowed Methodists to have an ordination ceremony, which is invalid, inside a Catholic Cathedral. He said, we cannot celebrate the Mass for which that cathedral was built. The bishop would not let them go in there to celebrate the old Mass, for which all the private altars around were built. There was a Methodist ordination in the cathedral, and yet we could not celebrate the old Mass there. That is a state of emergency. In Malta, there was a cleric mentioning that, and also in Australia. Of course, you can have Freemasons in the cathedral.