Bishop Schneider: And therefore, we will say to the Pope, Holy Father, even if we are disobeying you, we are doing this because of love for you, for the Holy See, for the liturgy of All Saints. And this will be for you in the hour of your judgment a consolation because we did not collaborate with your harmful orders.
Michael Matt: Hello again, ladies and gentlemen. I am Michael Matt from Remnant TV. We have a very special treat for you today, the great honor of spending a few moments with Bishop Athanasius Schneider, who is in the States for several conferences, including our conference here at the Catholic Identity Conference in Pittsburgh. Your Excellency, how are you doing?
Bishop Schneider: Thank you for the invitation. It is a pleasure for me to meet you and your friends here.
Michael Matt: Certainly, from our point of view, it is a great honor. People from all over the world come to this conference. I think we have about 800 this year. They take great solace in the fact that a bishop will come to them and encourage them in a very difficult time. I do not want to steal your thunder from your talk tonight, but we have been discussing the proper attitude, especially the differences between a priest, a bishop, and lay people, and the proper attitude with respect to a terrible situation in the church, where there is a crisis in the hierarchy and a crisis in leadership. I wonder if we could go to the first question. You have enunciated your concerns. For example, in Kazakhstan, you said some things before the Holy Father arrived about the meeting that was to take place there. I wonder if you can start by explaining what your thinking was as you gave those statements to the press about the possible problems with the visit and the meeting with the Holy Father in Kazakhstan.
Bishop Schneider: I considered it my duty of conscience as a bishop to address an evident, serious problem for the integrity of the Catholic faith and the life of the church, which such interreligious meetings represent. I had to address this, and therefore I did so with the conscience of helping the Pope reflect more deeply on this problem and in the future to correct it. This was my intention. In general, when I, as a bishop, see and state an evident danger for the purity of faith, morals, or liturgy, I have to address it with due respect, in a respectful form, and with a supernatural view. I also told the journalists that we bishops are not simply employees of the Pope. This is not the divine structure of the church. Bishops are brothers of the Pope. To offer correction or admonition is a fraternal gesture of charity. This is always my intention: to do this as an act of charity toward the Pope. “You will not succeed in overcoming and extinguishing the traditional rite of the Mass.”
Michael Matt: I saw the headlines, and of course, you are not responsible for them. The world press tried to cast you as a strong critic of the Holy Father. I think you said at one point that charity calls you to make your voice heard. For our viewers, what is a good rule of thumb on following our conscience to speak the truth, even to authority, while not violating Christian charity?
Bishop Schneider: First, we have to know that the church is not a political party. We are the church of God here on earth. The church of God is a family. In a family, we should not be fearful that raising our voice will lead to punishment. This happens in a dictatorship, where everyone fears raising their voice because the leadership will punish them. This should not be the atmosphere in the church. The Pope and the Holy See should not give the impression that they will punish you because you speak from conscience. We have to keep a supernatural view of the church. As you mentioned, when we make corrections, admonitions, or appeals, they should be moved by charity. Otherwise, they are too human and will not bear fruit. The church is not a simple human society. Only acts of true, supernatural charity will bear fruit, and these are the acts that will endure for the authentic benefit of the church. This should always guide us.
The attitude of the lay people is a little different from that of the bishops. Bishops are members of the magisterium, the teaching office of the church, and members of the episcopal collegium. In this way, they are brothers of the Pope and shepherds who help guide the church. Lay people are also members of the church and have their dignity and their office to defend the faith through the graces of confirmation, but they must always show respect for authority. This must always be done with respect; otherwise, it can degenerate into emotions, passions, anger, and so on. This will help no one and will only lead to frustration.
I suggest to lay people, yes, raise your voice in this tremendous crisis of the church. You have the right to do this. But do so insistently and clearly, without fear, and always with respect. As St Paul said, do the truth with charity. It is easier to take one of the extremes, only charity, saying I will not speak because I am subordinate, and the Pope and bishops will do everything, or blind obedience. This is not the true attitude of a Catholic. The opposite extreme, only truth without charity, harms and convinces no one. This is not the way of God. The way of God is the synthesis. This is more difficult. It is easier to shout and say, Let them be accursed. This is never the way of God. We have to unite these.
Therefore, raise your voice. There was a church father, St Caesarius of Arles, in southern France in the fifth century. In his homilies, he spoke to the lay people, saying, Come to us bishops and demand from us insistently that we give you the true nourishment of faith. Do not cease to ask us, even if you must strike us. He gave the example of a cow with her calf. When the mother cow does not give milk, the calf comes and hits the cow with its head until she gives milk. St Caesarius said that faithful lay people should do the same. Go to the shepherds, the bishops, even the Pope, and strike him, not with harm, but with a soft hit that does not injure. It makes the cow understand she must give milk. So the Pope and the bishops can understand. Raise your voice and say, we have the right. Holy Father, give us the true, pure, integral milk of the Catholic faith, of Catholic liturgy. We are the children of the church. Please do not lock up these treasures. Please speak clearly and teach us. In this sense, you can do this.
Michael Matt: I think during the run-up to the Amazon Synod, you and His Eminence Cardinal Burke had a document, I think an eight-page document, warning against certain heretical propositions within the working document of the Synod, which was very important. How do you, if you are not a Catholic, you are just a news person or a media person in Rome, and you see a cardinal and a bishop raising the possibility of heresy, even in the Vatican Amazon Synod, how do we prevent such needed action as yours from harming the institution of the papacy itself? In the modern world, where people are not reading much and are not educated, we have to speak with respect, but we run the risk of doing damage to the papacy, because the world can look at the papacy and say, obviously, there is no protection there, it is just a human institution, and it can fall into heresy. What is a good approach?
Bishop Schneider: Yes, this is truly a problem that you mentioned, and we have to recognize this. This is a rare case in the entire history of the church. We have to state simply that our current doctrinal and moral crisis in the papacy today is a crisis of the papacy and of the Episcopacy, which occurred rarely in this way in the doctrinal aspect during the 2000 years of the church. We had crises of the papacy, even very deep crises, always in the moral area. In the tenth century, the saeculum obscurum, the immoral lifestyle of some of the popes of the central Middle Ages and of the Renaissance popes was a great scandal and a stain for the papacy and for the Holy See, the chair of Peter. The immorality of several popes was harmful, but the doctrine of a pope who confuses doctrine is more grievous than a pope living immorally, because it undermines the foundations of the faith in the people of God. We had only rare cases of doctrinal confusion, which came from the wrong attitude of a pope.
The first was in Liberius in the fourth century in the Arian crisis, where Pope Liberius yielded and accepted, and signed an ambiguous formula of faith. It was not a direct heretical formula, thanks be to God, but ambiguous, and ambiguity always confuses. Therefore, Liberius was the first pope in the history of the church who was not canonized. All his predecessors from Saint Peter to him were canonized as martyrs or confessors of the faith. He also abandoned Saint Athanasius and consented that he would be excommunicated.
The other doctrinal problem was in the fourteenth century. So you see, it is rare, from the fourth century to the fourteenth, one thousand years with no doctrinal problems in the Holy See itself. Moral problems, yes. It was Pope John the Twenty-Second who started to spread in his ordinary Magisterium or daily Magisterium in his speeches and homilies a heresy, saying that the saints and the souls who were purified after purgatory or who were already purified on earth would not have the beatific vision until Christ comes again at the Last Judgment and God creates a new heaven and earth. Then only they would enter the beatific vision. This is wrong. Jesus said to the good thief, Today you will be with me in Paradise. He spread this idea, and some people resisted, but the clergy did not resist because they were fearful of losing their careers. Only one cardinal resisted the pope.
Michael Matt: It was mostly laypeople who were resisting.
Bishop Schneider: Yes, mostly lay people, and among them the king of France. He said this is wrong teaching and we cannot accept this. The Sorbonne University also condemned it. It is said, I do not know if it is true, that the king of France at that time said that if the pope came to Paris and did not repent of his wrong teaching, he would be burnt as a heretic. Maybe this was said. In any case, it is shown that the lay people were concerned about this wrong teaching. How can we imagine that the saints are not with God now, contemplating God? Thanks be to God, the pope repented before he died and retracted his errors. He called the cardinal college and repented.
Michael Matt: May I interrupt with a question? When John the Twenty-Second fell into heresy and even preached heresy, did he lose his office temporarily?
Bishop Schneider: No. It was not a formal heresy because the church had not yet proclaimed as a dogma of faith that all who are justified will enter the beatific vision of God immediately. It was in Holy Scripture, but it had not been formally defined. To be a formal heretic, there must be obstination; someone must remain pertinacious in his heretical positions after admonitions. This was not the case. Maybe he was obstinate, but he repented. The cardinal who admonished him was elected his successor Benedict the twelfth, and he proclaimed as a dogma of faith the truths which his predecessor undermined or denied.
So it was a rare case, and the next case is today. After the fourteenth century, we have now in the twenty-first century the same case, even a more grievous case than the previous two. But God will intervene as he intervened in the earlier cases. We have to do our work to admonish the pope persistently and to pray for him. It is important for lay people and for bishops when they make admonitions or appeals to accompany these actions with prayers and also acts of reparation. We are one family, one body. When one member suffers, all the others suffer. When the head suffers, today the visible head of the church is suffering and is in some way sick, and the entire body feels that the head is passing through sickness and weakness. We have to help with prayers and reparations so that the supernatural circulation of grace in the Mystical Body of Christ reaches the sick parts of the head, which is the Holy See today.
Michael Matt: Also, there is a sense in which I know your work and you. I saw you in Kazakhstan, being very charitable to the Pope, to his face, helping him see the Kazakhstan peasants and so forth. That was a wonderful example of what we are called to do. I am curious, because it is also important, just as important at that very event when he was in Kazakhstan, that you said what you said about the dangers of this kind of meeting. You had plenty of backing from the constant teaching of the Church to say what you said. Many people took a lot of solace in the fact that you spoke, because if no one speaks out, there is a temptation to despair and to fall into depression and to think the Church has gone completely off the rails. So I am asking, it seems like the work of speaking out is not going to push people out of the Church if we speak out correctly, in charity, but with accuracy. I think it helps people stay in the Church. Is that what your intentions are also?
Bishop Schneider: Of course, we cannot leave the Church. We are in the Church. We are members of the Church. When the Church is suffering, and the Holy See is now, to some extent, occupied by forces which are damaging the faith and evidently undermining the faith, it is a temporary phenomenon. We have to look supernaturally, that the Church is in the hands of God, in the hands of Christ, even in the greatest tempest of the sea, when Jesus is in the boat, sleeping but in the boat, and the boat cannot sink even in the greatest tempest. People should have this vision of the indestructibility of the Church. We have to remain in the Church because we have no other place to go. We must not create another kind of church or sect, or some independent community. This is not Catholic. Catholic means always in union with a Pope and a bishop. This is Catholic, even if we have to admonish the Pope or make appeals to him and offer corrections. He will remain the Pope, and we will continue to pray for him. We will continue to love him, maybe more, because he is in a pitiful situation. Imagine what he has to answer before the judgment of God. It is frightening what he has to answer for leaving such chaos and confusion in the Church. We must have pity on his soul and love him, his soul, Pope Francis, pray for him, and offer sacrifices for him, that he may be illuminated and recognize the errors he is committing. Like John the 22nd had the grace to repent before he died, it would be a great grace. We have to implore this for Pope Francis and for other bishops who are spreading confusion in the Church.
We must not shut ourselves in anger and say, I will do nothing with this Pope, I will do nothing with this bishop. This is not the attitude of a Catholic. It is the attitude of a sectarian, and we have to avoid these temptations. Even when, in some cases, we say we cannot obey the Pope because he gives commands or orders that evidently undermine the faith or take away the treasure of the liturgy, which is the liturgy of the entire Church, of our fathers and saints. We have the right to this. In these cases, even if we formally disobey, we obey the entire Church of all times, and with such apparently formal disobedience, we honor the Holy See because we keep the treasures of the liturgy, the treasure of the Holy See, though temporarily limited or discriminated against by those who currently occupy high offices in the Holy See. The Holy See is greater than a single Pope. All this is for the honor of the Holy See and ultimately for the love of the Pope, because one day he will appear before the judgment of God, and God will say, Because you gave these orders, you damaged the spiritual good of the Church. The Lord will say to the Pope, because you prohibited or marginalized the holy liturgy of the saints of all ages, the Church lost many graces because you locked down the liturgy of the ages. Then the Lord will show him that during his pontificate, there were groups of priests who did not obey him in this marginalizing of the liturgy and continued to celebrate it, and therefore, his guilt can be diminished because the liturgy of all ages was still celebrated. It is only my imagination. We will say to the Holy Father, even if we disobey you, we do this out of love for you, for the Holy See, and for the liturgy of the saints. In the hour of your judgment, this will be a consolation because we did not collaborate with harmful orders.
Michael Matt: Excellency, beautifully stated. I was thinking about all the people we hear from day to day around the world who watch Remnant TV or read our newspaper. What you just said, I would like to take that, clip it, and send it to priests who are wondering what they should do under Traditionis, because it is important for the priests and bishops to think about the lay position right now. It is disheartening, because not only are they losing their Latin Mass, I am talking about mothers and fathers with seven, eight, nine, ten little children, but they have been driving for forty-five minutes, fifty minutes, an hour every Sunday, every week for twenty-five years to raise their families for generations. Now, even that far-distant Mass is being taken away by the Pope for no apparent reason that makes sense to them. So, the priests who have the opportunity to continue to offer the traditional Latin Mass to these Catholics who are simply trying to remain faithful, I think, through disobedience, will help them stay in the Church.
Bishop Schneider: Exactly, and in these Masses, even if they are not always formally approved, it is important to pray for Pope Francis and to pray for the bishop of that diocese. This shows clearly that we are not schismatic. We are not a new sect. We love the Pope, but we cannot temporarily follow damaging and harmful orders. These priests must have a superior. They cannot be their own Pope or their own bishop. This is not Catholic. It is not Catholic, and over time, this will degenerate into a kind of guru. We see examples today, unfortunately, also in the traditional world, of completely independent priests. This cannot be. It is contrary to the Catholic spirit. A priest cannot be independent. He must have a superior. If he does not, he must seek a superior. He cannot be his own superior. This is not Catholic. He must go to a community or a society of Christians to affiliate, to have a superior to whom he must give account. A priest must have a superior. Otherwise, he begins to think he is a pope, he is a bishop, he is everything, and this is dangerous.
He may seek a community which is approved, even the Society which is partly approved by the Holy See through concessions the Holy Father gave them. There is structure, obedience, and subordination. Or, in very rare cases, a retired Catholic bishop who still has faculties and is in good standing may serve. A priest may submit himself to this bishop, receive orders, and give account in a discrete and temporary way until the Holy See has again those who will promote and protect holy tradition.
Michael Matt: Well, it’s obviously very important for us to, not unlike the Christians in the catacombs of old, come together and have serious conversations because we are in a state of emergency now. Along the lines of what you just said, how are we going to proceed? The conversation, the coming together of the priests and bishops, that we have to work this out, is extremely important right now. As you just said, we need to have those conversations rather than just going rogue and reacting, and end up in a problematic situation. I know you have a busy schedule, but last year, I think I ended up asking you something about the angels because the angelic friends are so important during this dark time. I wonder if you could say something. It strikes me that Our Lady would be, obviously, the go-to person, intercessory anyway, but she understands, as a human like us, what it was like to lose Jesus Christ to death on the cross and also to lose Peter during that period when she suddenly realized that even Peter, even his number one apostle, had betrayed her son before he died on the cross. That betrayal must have wounded her heart a great deal. It must have been a very difficult thing for her. Is there something we can glean from what Our Lady experienced in that regard for how we need to deal with the fact that we’re losing the Mass and we’re losing Peter for a time?
Bishop Schneider: It’s a very good example you mentioned, very deep. I think we have to ask Our Lady to have her attitude, not to despair. She saw the betrayal of Peter, imagine, and even Peter abandoned the cross. Only John remained, one apostle, and all the apostles fled. And she continued loving the apostles. She did not react in anger against them. She continued to pray for them, and then she implored on Pentecost, with her Immaculate Heart, the coming down of the Holy Spirit upon the apostles. She was there. This is our attitude. We have to pray for them, to love them, even if they are betrayers, to make reparation.
You mentioned the angels. We are today in a great fight, a spiritual war between the evil spirits and the good spirits, the angels, between the truth and heresy, between holiness and sins and vices, between the strictness of the liturgy and the desolations and blasphemies in the liturgy. This is a fight, and in this fight we have to invoke the Holy Angels as our companions, co-fighters, co-adorers. They want to help us. We have to build a spiritual army together with the Holy Angels, St. Michael the Archangel, and invoke them to expel the evil spirits or the influence of the evil spirits in our communities, in the Church, from the Holy See, from the chancellors, and so on.
We have to send the angels because we are one family. Many saints had this attitude and practice, to send the guardian angel to another angel, a guardian angel. Saint Padre Pio oftentimes sent his holy angel to the other holy angel for a person who should do some important work. We can send our holy angels to the Guardian Angel of the Pope, of the bishop, to strengthen him, so that the Guardian Angel of the Pope may better influence him, that the Pope may hear and be open to the voice of his guardian angels. I think that the Popes receive special angels still, besides their own guardian angels, and the bishops also.
We have to collaborate. We make a strategy with the Holy Angels. In the world and inside the Church, the evil forces are masters of strategy. We have to make strategies too, but holy strategies, not evil strategies. We have to send the angels, invoke them, and make these strategies with our holy patrons. God, with these holy protectors and helpers, will intervene. The time will come. We have to trust and do what we can. Even if we are sowing in tears in the field, God will give us a harvest in his time. We must remain faithful to the Catholic faith, live a virtuous life of charity, protect the faith, defend it, and do apologetics. This is our mission. To increase our mission as a militant Church, we must be conscious that we are together a great family and convinced that we are the winners. The Catholic faith will win, even through these extraordinary crises of the papacy in our day.
Michael Matt: Thank you so much, Your Excellency. I conclude this interview. I think this might be the fourth or fifth interview that we’ve done. As a layman, looking at what’s happening to the Church, giving way to anger is very easy, and I’m very susceptible to that. There are a lot of people out there who are frustrated and disheartened by what’s happening at the highest levels of the Church. I appreciate your constant guidance and example on how we need to ensure the strategy, the resistance, the admonishment, whatever you want to call it, bears good fruit. We can get angry and just fly off the handle and do damage to the cause of Christ. I truly appreciate you coming to the Catholic Identity Conference to remind us how to fight as warriors, loyal opposition, but warriors of Jesus Christ.
Bishop Schneider: May God bless you, all your friends, and all who, with a sincere heart and loving heart, are doing work and contributing to the true renewal of our Holy Mother Church.
Michael Matt: Thank you so much, Your Excellency!