Raymond Arroyo: He is the auxiliary bishop of Astana, Kazakhstan, and he joins me this evening to talk about the vital importance of Catholic tradition and the status of the ancient rite of the Mass and his brand new book, No Greater Love: The True Meaning of martyrdom. Please welcome back to the program. Bishop Athanasia Schneider, Your Excellency, thanks for being here. I want to get to your book. No greater love in a moment, but I need to get your reaction to a couple of important stories. St Peter’s Basilica has suffered multiple alleged desecrations in recent years, such as the Vatican-approved LGBT pilgrimage last month, the Pachamama idol scandal in 2019. Albanian Cardinal Ernest Simone, an exorcist who was imprisoned for his faith under the country’s communist regime, recited an exorcism during a pontifical high mass at St Peter’s Basilica. Of course, it was the first time that mass had returned to the basilica since Pope Francis banished it in 2022. Was this appropriate? That exorcism and necessary, in your opinion?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, very much so. And I think it was that God heard the prayers of so many Catholics who were suffering deeply because of this abomination, which took place with the LGBT activists using the Basilica of St Peter as a platform for their propaganda to approve homosexuality itself. And so I think that the Lord heard so many prayers from all over the world who were praying to God that these may be atoned and repaired spiritually. And so it was the first act after these events, very regrettable that even a cardinal or most high-ranking clergy in the church and a very meritorious confessor of faith, recited this exorcism. I think it was really the act of the Divine Providence, an intervention, I would say, from divine providence.
Raymond Arroyo: Bishop, what are your thoughts on Pope Leo’s permission that was granted to Cardinal Burke for the old right, the traditional Latin Mass to be celebrated once again in St Peter’s Do you see this as a sign of peace in these liturgical wars that were reignited by Pope Francis’ traditionus Custodes, which, for those who might not know, gravely limited the availability of the traditional Latin Mass?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, of course, if you have to be very grateful to the Holy Father that he made this really pastoral, paternal gesture in some way against the prescription of his predecessor, who forbade this mass for some years. And so it was a first public gesture. I think it could be perceived as such, from Pope Leo to the liturgical piece, towards the pastoral answer for this problem, which is, since 50 years in the church, since was there, was introduced the Novus Ordo was introduced, and in this way, de facto expelled the millennium-old mass of the saints. Now again, it is a step-by-step. I think it could return to the full freedom of this right, as all other rights in the church have this, this freedom. And so I hope that Pope Leo will continue, not only to grant once a year, but that he may issue a, really a pastoral norm, to grant free access to all priests, to all faithful, to this venerable right, or form of the right, so that bishops will not be more able arbitrarily limit the excess, because it will.
It is a property of the entire church, not only one bishop. Oh, the pope must give rhythm and say, Look, my dear children, my priest, this right belongs to the entire church, and therefore no Bishop should have the right to dispose it. To forbid it or to limit it, because it is the same as every priest. Let us say theoretically that a bishop will forbid the Novus Ordo. He cannot, because it is granted for the entire church, the new Mass. So also a bishop should not have the authority to forbid the traditional form, because both forms are the Roman Rite, and the Second Vatican Council made a very interesting and important statement, saying that the mother church venerates and treats with the equal rights and dignity all legitimate existing rights in the church, and so in the traditional form, is one of these rights which the church Must venerate and protect.
Raymond Arroyo: Yeah, it’s curious how people cherry pick bits and pieces of Vatican two and the pronouncements to, you know, to force their own version of reality on people, when, in reality, the Church Fathers during the Second Vatican Council, they never meant to outlaw the traditional mass or the Gregorian chant, or the, you know, the beautiful prayers, any more than they meant to outlaw the Chaldean rite or the Armenian rite, or any of the other rites of the church.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Exactly, this is the treasure of the entire church, both the Oriental rites and the Western, the Latin rites; there are several forms let and say they are the right of Milan, the Ambrosian right, the Mozarabic, but these are rights. But within the Roman right, there are different uses or usages, like the right of the city of Lyon in France, of Braga in Portugal, the Dominican right, the Carthusian, and the Carmelite right. So these are, of course, called rights, but they are forms of the Roman right, yes, and the same are, they are the African Zaire right in Congo, in Shasa and and then why not the venerable, Millennium-old form of the Roman right? It’s one of these, and therefore, there is no convincing argument to limit or to discriminate against these venerable old forms of the Roman, right?
Raymond Arroyo: Well, Bishop, I always think, and we’re talking to Bishop Schneider, I always think this is an unnecessary battle that was reopened. Pope Benedict had already healed whatever wounds there were from these two competing, if you will, Roman rites. And he said, Look, you have an extraordinary rites. You have an ordinary rites. They can live, coexist side by side, and one will have a sacral, sacred effect upon the other. And it was working beautifully. I don’t know how we got to this position where we’re pitting the ancient rites that the new mass is predicated upon against itself. This is chaos, but I know I have limited time with you, so I want to move on. The third synodal assembly of churches in Italy has taken a rather substantial step toward normalizing and affirming homosexual identity and gender dysphoria in a recent document titled Leaven of peace and hope. It utilizes unprecedented language to express openness toward what has previously been considered disordered identities. For example, in Section 30 C of the document, it’s dedicated to quote, caring for relationships, the Italian ecclesial authorities, with an overwhelming majority, committed themselves to the promotion of openness and recognition of homosexual and transgender identities. Bishop, your reaction to this document, and what do you make of the use of those acronyms?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Now, yes, I think this is a cunning method of beautiful words, a play of beautiful words to definitely deny and abolish the sixth commandment and the divine revelation on the intrinsic evil of homosexual acts and or transsexualism and so and then also to recognize the Holy Orders for women. They, of course, start with the deacon diaconate. So this is an agenda already established for decades. And the global LGBT or gender agenda is thereby accepted by this so-called synodal committee of the Italian Catholic Church. And therefore this is unacceptable, because it, in a cunning way, undermines or even contradicts the explicit Word of God and the constant, immutable teaching of the Church on the intrinsical evil of all sexual acts outside a valid marriage, and of the sacrament of orders on three steps, Deacon, priest and Bishop, which are by divine institution for male Christians, because it is divine institution and so, but this committee, it’s not formal the bishop’s conference.
We have to distinguish it is the bishop’s conference must still approve these so called proposals of these synodal committees, and we hope, I hope, that the formal approval by the Bishops Conference itself will not be given, I hope, but even though, even if it would be given, it is not the, in this case, the voice of the magisterium of the church, but anti voice, because when we contradict divine revelation, it’s not more Magisterium, it is the contrary of Magisterium. Therefore, and is not valuable, and therefore we must nevertheless speak always to the immutable truth and sure doctrine of the Church,
Raymond Arroyo: Bishop Schneider, recently, we heard news of a prayer room being provided for Muslim scholars at the Vatican Library. We saw the much lauded visit of King Charles and Queen Camilla of the UK to the Sistine Chapel and to St Paul’s outside the wall. A new title was bestowed on King Charles, along with a special chair of honor. The Vatican seems to be very interested in ecumenical gestures of late, reaching outside the church while banning traditional Catholics from their own parishes. Contrast, if you will, the dueling gestures of granting, you know, Muslim prelates and adherents a prayer room, and barring Catholics from access to the Traditional Mass, if you will.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Well, first, we have to distinguish the Muslims and the Anglican Church, because this is a substantial difference, because the Anglicans are Christians, and the Muslims do not believe in Jesus Christ. So it is a fundamental difference. So first, but these acts, which you mentioned, are a continuous effort, an endeavor to promote, basically, a relativism, relativism in religion. So by this saying that all religions, even non-Christians, are ways to God, not explicitly, but de facto. So you can promote relativism, also by acts and facts.
So, to grant a prayer room on the territory of the Vatican to Muslims. Wrong, of course, because by these they are praying there there are also some Surahs from the Quran, which are a kind of outreach against our Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity. They’re saying, they’re in their prayers, and they will do, probably, in this prayer room, in the library of the Vatican, that God has no son, and and and so on, these anti-Christian expressions of the Quran. They will recite it also there how we can give place and occasion for a religion or prayers, which de facto contradict and even blaspheme the law. Our Lord, Jesus Christ, is the only Son of God, rejecting him by the prayers there in the territory of Vatican I think it is unjust. And the apostles would never do this. And the entire 2000-year history of the church, they give them this platform in some way, a small one, to promote their own religion.
Raymond Arroyo: Yeah. Bishop Schneider, I don’t mean to cut you off, but I have to get to your book. So I hope you don’t disagree with me. In your book, you talk about martyrdom being an essential part of the life of the Church Militant on earth. What does that mean for us, particularly in light of what you just talked about?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, because the life of the church is marked since the beginning and the end by martyrdom. It means the witness, the supreme witness, to our Lord, Jesus Christ, directly Christ. So martyrdom in the church is connected with the truth of believing in Jesus Christ, not only believing in God in a general way, but in Jesus Christ as the incarnate God and the only Savior of humankind. So and our Lord His sacrifice on the cross is the source of all martyrdom, of all witness, and the essence and substance of martyrdom is the supreme act of love. And God is love.
So we are the religion of love, not one of hatred, of love. And therefore we are dying the martyrs, because we love God, Jesus Christ, more than all others, even our life, and by dying, we even love those who kill us. As St Stephen, the martyr, showed so impressively when he knelt down the deacon Stephen and prayed for his murderers, as our Lord did on the cross. And so the martyrdom the church started with martyrdom, with a time of martyrdom, even for 300 years, continuously persecuted. And she will also end in a time of martyrdom, when Christ will come, as we can see in the apocalypse. And so it is continuous. There was never a time, almost, when there were no martyrs. And the martyrs, this is the most How do you say important contribution for the spiritual growth of the church. The tulean place.
Raymond Arroyo: The blood of the martyrs, the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: So this is the deepest and the most efficacious contribution. But there’s also a mark of not of blood. This is a spiritual martyrdom in some way, the white martyrdom, the religious life, the monastic life, tradition, the Fathers of the Church. Call it a white martyrdom. So why, even not being killed, not shedding your blood, you are performing the same act of supreme love, of supreme occasion to the Lord self, giving completely like a sacrifice of love. This is really monastic life. So this is the white martyrdom, I should agree, in martyrdom, in some traditions, it’s called. This is the life of the faithful who are suffering in their life, who are uniting their sufferings with the sacrifice of our Lord. In this sense, we can also, in some way, call this also act of martyrdom, spiritually, because they are when they are accepting their crosses, their sacrifices, their their sufferings, physically, spiritually in their life with in union with the love of Christ on the cross, then they are also contributing most powerfully to the edification of the Mystical Body of Christ and for the salvation of souls.
Raymond Arroyo: Yeah, no, I saw that. I saw that with mother, Angelica, of course, you know, in her personal sufferings, the persecution she endured, building, you know, a network that was only meant to be a spiritual growth network and help people through their lives. But there’s a, you know, there’s a heavy cost to that. And I suppose, watching it as a younger person, I thought, well, that’s, you know, it’s a pity she had to go through that. Until you realize, guess what, you have to go through it too if you’re going to continue on that path. And well, here we are. You had a personal relationship, though Your Excellency, with martyrs. Growing up in the Soviet Union, through your parents, there was an indirect contact with a martyr Ukrainian Greek Catholic priest. He had been known for several years, the Confessor of your parents in the underground church. Tell me how that man how. His martyrdom was important to you and your family, and how did it shape your ministry?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, very much. So he was always present spiritually in our family all the time. My parents spoke to us, to the siblings of his holiness. He was their confessor, and my parents even helped him in some conspiracy moments in the underground church, protecting him, organizing holy masses. And then also came to our house in Kyrgyzstan, where I was born, I am the youngest, where he celebrated a secret mass in our house and and I was a small child, almost one year old, and my mother put me in the cradle on the side where he said it was being celebrated. So in some way, I became an older boy with a year old and so, and then he blessed me and my siblings. And then when he left our house and he came back to Kazakhstan, he was arrested by the KGB, the Secret Service, and put in the gulag, very horrible.
And there he suffered for one and a half years and died as a consequence of his sufferings. And then he was beatified as a martyr. And so these sayings were always what my parents said; he always said to the people, keep faithfully the faith of your forefathers. And so it’s very timely for our day, because in our day, when there is so much confusion in doctrine, in liturgy, in our time, in the church, these words, keep faithfully the faith of your forefathers, so of our forefathers, of the saints, the traditional, immutable faith. And then the other phrase, he oftentimes repeated, when if you will be the richest person in the world, you will possess all things, but you will not have God in your heart, Jesus Christ, then you are the poorest person. And even though you are the poorest one, but you have Jesus Christ, your God, in your heart, you are the more the richest person in the world. So these phrases, he oftentimes repeated. And so this very much marked me in my childhood, and this contact through my parents, to him, through his teaching. And I am so grateful to the Lord. And today is his feast day. Exactly. We celebrate this day, October 13th, in Kazakhstan, liturgically, the Feast of Blessed Alexis Zaritsky. And today I celebrated a mass in his honor.
Raymond Arroyo: Beautiful, beautiful. Well, our timing is perfect. There’s one other thing I want to touch on, Your Excellency, and it’s about the message of Fatima and the theological commentary on the message of Fatima. You mentioned this in the book, the value of martyrdom for spiritual renewal in the life of the church. What does the message of Fatima teach us about martyrdom? And what do you make of the much-talked-about third secret that we have a bit of, but not all of?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, we could. We could read this part, which was published. We know that is the scenario of martyrdom. So the Pope, the bishops, the priests, the lay people, the religious, all are climbing up a mountain, persecuted by soldiers who are persecuting them. They have arms and are killing them, and with the arms beneath the cross. And then, before this scenario, there is another one, where the Pope is going through a half-destroyed, ruined city, where there are the corpses of priests and so on. So this is a situation of a ruin, and also persecution, and then. But I think that this image of a half-destroyed city, town, could also be spiritually the city is a symbol of the church in the church tradition. And so it could be a spiritual ruin in the church, and the corpses of the clergy may be a spiritual crisis of the clergy. And so it is also a message for a very timely and then another. Then.
There are the angels seen who are collecting the blood of the martyrs in their vessels, Crystal vessels, and they’re pouring out these to the faithful to strengthen them spiritually. This is the strength of the spiritual sacrifice of the martyrs with Christ and their intercession to the church, encouraging us. And so this third part of The Secret of Fatima is also very tragic, dramatic, but it is basically also consoling us, strengthening us that we, we are confirmed, strengthened by the example, by the intercession of the martyrs.
Raymond Arroyo: Yeah, it’s already, it’s also, to me, it’s also a little frightening, too, Your Excellency, because it means this wasteland. You know, the wasteland, as you said, points to spiritual rotten ruin, which we may also be in the midst of?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, but we know that the gates of hell will not prevail and that The Lord will again intervene and will edify and renew his beloved Church, His Bride, our mother church, again, slowly, with this true renewable, the spiritual renewal, and this is the faithfulness to Christ, the faithfulness to the traditional, immutable faith and the also to keep the the the traditional liturgy, at least the the reverence in liturgy and to the Holy Eucharist and a new moral holiness, spiritual holiness, with the clergy, with the space full the families and this is going on in the church. We can see it slowly. There are again, the Holy Spirit is preparing this ground. So we have, in this sense, we have reasons for hope in the midst of trials. This is a Christian attitude.
Raymond Arroyo: Your Excellency, we will leave it there, no greater love. The true meaning of martyrdom by Bishop Athanasius Schneider is available at bookstores everywhere and online. Your Excellency, thank you for being here.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: You’re welcome. God bless you.