Dr. Taylor Marshall: I’m joined with His Excellency, Bishop Athanasius Schneider, a bishop that I revere and respect. He is a fantastic theologian. He says a beautiful Mass, very reverent, very kind, and very humble. Before I give you the microphone, Your Excellency, happy birthday, your 64th birthday.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Thank you very much. Good.
Dr. Taylor Marshall: I was just before the show. I just turned 47 last week, so we’re somewhat proximate, and we have birthdays in Lent, which are not as fun. Your Excellency, would you open us with a prayer?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, In nominee, Patris et Fili et Spiritus Sancti. Amen.
Paternoster, qui es in caelis Sancti. Fiat nomen tuum. Adveniat regnum tuum. Fiat voluntas tua, sicut in caelo et in terra. Panem nostrum quotidianum da nobis hodie, et dimitte nobis debita nostra, sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris, et ne nos inducas in tentationem, sed libera nos a malo. Amen.
In nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti. Amen.
Dr. Taylor Marshall: Well, Your Excellency, recently you discussed three things that Pope Francis could do, as everyone knows his health is failing. He may be in his last months or years, who knows. You recommended things that would be pious, that would be edifying for him to do before his pontificate ends. You also spoke about things that a future pope, perhaps the next pope, could do to honor God, to edify the Church, to bring about clarity and unity. If you could share some of those ideas, I think the audience would be really interested.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, I wish from all my heart for Pope Francis that he could receive the grace from God and cooperate with it to do this most necessary act in his pontificate, according to his mission as successor of Peter and Vicar of Christ, to strengthen the entire Church in faith, as Jesus commanded to Peter and to every one of his successors. That is, concretely, to say that Pope Francis may, before our Lord calls him to appear before his judgment, have the possibility and the grace to do the necessary rectifications of some concrete acts, documents, and affirmations which he made in his entire pontificate that undermined the clarity of the Catholic faith, of the Divine faith. Rectifications and also necessary retractions, to retract specifically, concretely, some documents and acts, and also to ask publicly with all humility and sincerity for forgiveness, pardon, from God and all the members of the Church for all his failures in protecting the divine, Catholic faith, which he received as a task. He received it from God the moment he became pope and accepted this office. He received from God in his hands a treasure, an immense, ineffable treasure, the Holy Divine Catholic faith, the deposit of faith, to be protected, nurtured, and handed over to the entire Church like a good father and a conscious and zealous administrator of something that is God’s property, the Catholic faith. I wish him that he may have the grace, collaborate, and make a public act before he goes and appears before the tribunal of God.
Dr. Taylor Marshall: We seem to have a delay in His Excellency. Let’s just wait for a moment here. Hopefully, he comes back. Everyone, say a prayer that our internet connection here will work. I’ll just give him a moment. Hopefully, we get him back here. Let me send him a message. A connection froze, Your Excellency. Would you please refresh?
Let’s see. We’ll just give him a moment. One of the next questions that I’m going to ask him, well, we’ll wait here patiently. I’m going to ask him next. You know, Pope John the 22nd was the pope who held the error that the Blessed Mary and the Saints do not have the beatific vision. That pope later recanted and made a public statement. There is, in our tradition, this precedent. Hopefully, we can get Bishop Athanasius Schneider to comment on that, but it looks like he’s permanently frozen. What I’m going to do here is cancel that out and ask him to reuse his previous link. I apologize for this. He is in Kazakhstan, I am in Texas. That’s a long distance. Here he is. He’s back. You’re back.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: I don’t know where I have to continue now.
Dr. Taylor Marshall: I recall. I recall. You were saying that before he reaches the tribunal of God, he will make retractions and clarifications and write about these, when you froze.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes. I would say that for Pope Francis, it would be the greatest act of his pontificate if he accepted the grace and collaborated to do the necessary rectifications and retractions of those things in his pontificate that were confusing and undermined the clarity of faith. We know the great example, very rare in history, of St Augustine, who at the end of his life did a specific work called Retractationes. This shows the greatness of a man to have the courage and sincerity to make a public retractation. This would also be a gesture of greatness for Pope Francis. He could also publicly ask pardon from God for all acts and words with which he confused the faithful, acts in which he did not correctly observe his mission, which God gave him to strengthen all the faithful, pastors, and the faithful, as Peter’s successor. Asking pardon from God and all members of the Church is necessary. With these acts of retractions, rectifications, and publicly asking pardon, I am sure he will prepare for himself in heaven a beautiful crown. God is so good; he will reward him for this. We should wish him this from all our hearts. I would ask the Pope to do this, and let us pray that the Lord illuminates him. Let us hope that as long as he is still alive, he can do this necessary and even great work of retraction, rectification, and publicly asking pardon.
Dr. Taylor Marshall: Yes. When we were frozen there, Your Excellency, I was explaining to the audience that there was a pope, Pope John the 22nd, who made a retraction before he died. If I recall correctly, he said that Our Lady and the Saints did not have the beatific vision, that they would receive it at the end of time, and did not currently have it. The Dominicans resisted him. Many people in the Church openly resisted Pope John the 22nd, who was a valid pope. In his humility, John the 22nd not only retracted it, but also issued a papal statement. Isn’t that correct? It is part of our tradition with the papacy.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, it is a rare example, but it exists. Thank you for reminding us of this example. John the 22nd denied the existence of the beatific vision before the second coming of Christ, but this was contrary to the constant belief of the Church. Even our Lord said to the good thief on the cross, “Today you will be with Me in Heaven.” When someone is with Jesus, then it is the beatific vision. The Church always believed this. At that time, it was a scandal and was resisted by the Sorbonne University. Only one cardinal, a Dominican, resisted the pope, while the rest of the cardinals tried to find an interpretation, which we today call a hermeneutic of continuity. They tried to square the circle, as we say. This is similar to our day, when even well-meaning theologians try to twist things with the so-called hermeneutic of continuity, but it does not always work, as it did not work in the time of John the 22nd. One Dominican cardinal said, “No, this is not working. It is against the tradition of the Church.” He admonished the pope reverently and fraternally. Before the pope died, as you mentioned, he retracted in the presence of the cardinals, died repentant, asked forgiveness, and made a statement that he had erred. The cardinals then elected exactly this cardinal who had admonished him, and he became his successor, Benedict XII. Benedict XII then proclaimed, ex cathedra, a dogmatic definition about the beatific vision. We had this example, and so we hope and pray that Pope Francis could also receive this grace.
Dr. Taylor Marshall: It’s beautiful when I look at the pontificate of Pope Francis again. I’m just a layman, I’m just a father, I’m not a bishop like you, I’m not a successor of the apostles. But the flashpoints that stand out for me are Amoris Letitia, communion for those who are in invalid marriages, and the footnote. Another one is the Abu Dhabi document that God wills a plurality of religions. That’s probably the second one that stands out to me. The third is the veneration of the clergy and bishops and cardinals and even perhaps the Pope of the Pachamama idol in the Vatican gardens, in the church of Santa Maria, and in the Vatican itself. And then the fourth. There are many for me, but I think these are the four principal ones. The fourth is the statement that homosexual couples, as couples, may receive blessings from priests as couples. Those are four that scandalize me and have scandalized millions of others. Are there more that you would add there, and what would be the proper response for a pope to address those scandals in the church?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, I agree with you. I also consider these four acts and documents the most serious errors and confusions that Pope Francis committed in his pontificate. Not only Amoris Letitia, but on the basis of Amoris Letitia, the pope wrote a letter approving the norms of the bishops of the Buenos Aires region. One of these norms explicitly stated that divorced people and remarried people, if it is not feasible to live in continence, then the door of the sacraments is opened for them. This is the wording of one of these norms, and Pope Francis, on the same day as the date of the norms in Buenos Aires, approved in Rome a document stating, I approve this, and I consider these norms the best application of Amoris Letitia. Both the norms of the Buenos Aires region bishops and the papal approval document were put in the Acta Apostolicae Sedis and declared by the cardinal secretary of state that, in an audience with Pope Francis, he declared both documents as the authentic magisterium of the church. This is grievous. It is against divine revelation. We cannot undermine the indissolubility of marriage with such actions. It is not a direct denial of the truth, but in practice it undermines the indissolubility of marriage and the holiness of the Eucharist itself. It is a danger for the salvation of the souls of these couples because they are pushed by the church to commit sacrilegious communions and continue to live in a state against the will of God, putting the salvation of their souls at risk. This is serious. Therefore, both the norms of the Buenos Aires region bishops and the papal approval must be explicitly retracted.
At least the phrase in the Abu Dhabi document stating that God wills the plurality of religions must be retracted. The entire Abu Dhabi document probably cannot be retracted because it was a joint document with the leader of the Muslim university in Cairo, but the phrase stating that God wills the diversity of religions must be named and retracted. It is a direct contradiction of the first commandment of God and the uniqueness of Jesus Christ. Also, what he spoke about last September in Singapore, in the meeting with the youth, where he said that all religions are a way to God, must also be retracted because it is against divine revelation.
The document blessing homosexual couples, not individuals, must be retracted. This was trickery. There was no need to say that a homosexual person can be blessed individually when they repent and ask God for the strength to resist sin. The document of blessing couples is a masterful trick of sophistry, an offense to our intelligence. We must reject it. It must be retracted.
Finally, there must be an act of reparation and expiation for the veneration of the Pachamama idol in the Vatican gardens, in the presence of the pope, in the Basilica of St Peter, and in the church Santa Maria Transpontina near the Vatican. This must be named, and the Pope must perform an official act of reparation.
Dr. Taylor Marshall: I agree. Now I think a lot of people are thinking, Okay, well if, if he were to die and not make retractions and not make reparations. What does the next pope do? And we also have an example in our church history of Pope Saint Leo the Second, who corrected his successor, Pope Honorius, and even agreed with the council that he was anathema and that he did not preserve the purity of the Holy See. Could we see the next pope create a syllabus of errors of Francis, publish them, and make a public, not just a correction, but even the condemnation of Francis? I don’t know how many would be on the syllabus of errors. We’ve listed four, now maybe there are 10 or 12. Could and should the next pope do such a thing for the sake of the faithful and for the integrity of the deposit of faith?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Not only could he, but he should also do it. This is his task, which God gave him, and God will demand him in the tribunal, in the judgment. Every pope will be clear before the judgment of God, no one can hide themselves or do trickery. Before the judgment of God, as the Holy Scripture says, all is open. We have to live for eternity. The pope is first for eternity, not for the time. As Saint Augustine, as Saint Athanasius said, it is not fitting that we bishops are living and serving the time. We must serve the Lord. The first is the Pope and the truth. So the next pope’s first task must be, if Pope Francis will not do the rectifications and retractions, he must do this in the name of the entire church, to strengthen the church. Maybe it is not necessary; it is up to the discretion of the pope to condemn his predecessor. I think it is not necessarily necessary. It would be sufficient that he abrogates and condemns these acts which we mentioned in a calm, objective way, simply naming the documents or the expressions and condemning them or abrogating them, and then publishing a kind of profession of faith, which would be a kind of syllabus, but maybe in a positive manner. Saying, I confess that Christ is the only way to salvation and so on. I confess that homosexual acts are intrinsically evil, always and without exception and so on. Only an example of the main errors, the main confusions, and the ambiguous teachings of our day must be collected, and in such a formula of confession or profession of faith, he must do this first. Maybe one document first, confessing what is true, naming these errors or ambiguous doctrines, confusing. Then a second part should be, in my opinion, practical, because not only must we confess, the pope must govern the church, it must be concrete, it must be practical. He must issue the same document, probably as norms, where he says it is abrogated, let us say, the blessings of homosexual couples in all dioceses, and so on. Or it is abrogated norms in some diocese that created so-called pastoral organizations for LGBT communities. This is an abomination, because LGBT communities, the same expression, is already heretic, because God did not create such diversity of so-called genders and orientations. It must be forbidden or abrogated to exhibit symbols of LGBT communities in churches and so on. I think it must be very concrete, also with threatening punishments, because without punishments the document will be only a paper, and paper does not help. It must protect the flock, the faithful, from these evils, from these poisons, in an efficient way, and even if a bishop does not accomplish these norms or these professions of faith, he must be admonished. When he will not obey, he or a cardinal must be expelled from the College of Cardinals. Otherwise, there will be no solution, and the confusion will continue, poisoning the entire body of the church. We must protect the health of the body of Christ and the flock, and so I think this should be done by a pope, at a minimum. This is the normal task of a pope. It would be better if Pope Francis himself did it before he goes to the judgment of God, better, of course.
Dr. Taylor Marshall: Yes. Do you think there should be a papal oath? I know that previously, there was an oath made. Last weekend I served as godfather for my friend Joey and his son, and right before the baptism, they asked the godparents, or if you are an adult, they ask the adult, do you believe in God the Father? Do you believe in Jesus Christ? Do you believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church? And that has to be said in vows, or else the baptism does not move forward. The faith must be present for the sacrament of baptism to move forward. It seems to me that although the papacy is not a sacrament, the faith must be present before the papacy is accepted and received. There should be some kind of affirmation of the faith or a papal oath, either just before or at the beginning of the pontificate, because the whole point of the papacy is to confirm the brethren and to bind and loose the truth of God in dogma and in morals. Why don’t we have a papal oath anymore? Should we return to one?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, I think we should have this. But I want to clarify what you said. First, the pope receives the pontificate the moment he accepts the election. At this point, he is already pope. In this moment, let us say in the Sistine Chapel, he is elected, and the Dean of Cardinals proclaims that he has the majority or the necessary votes. Then he approaches and is asked, according to the ritual, do you accept your canonical election? He says yes, and at this moment, he is the pope with all his power.
Dr. Taylor Marshall: But couldn’t they, I guess, what I am suggesting is that the election happens, he has been designated, and then before they ask, do you accept the papacy, they could make him take a vow or an oath. Then, when he completes the oath, they could ask, having professed the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Faith, do you now consent and receive the papacy? He could answer yes or no. But at least there is, just like in baptism, one last assurance that he is a Catholic and is vowing to uphold and defend the faith.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: It was never done, at least in my memory of the history of the church. What you suggest, the so-called papal oath, was done simply after he accepted the election, in the public ceremony of his coronation or enthronement. In this context, I think it would be better if the church prescribed such an oath, a very detailed, very clear oath, stressing fidelity to the constant tradition of faith, to the constant tradition of church discipline, and even to the liturgy. The pope cannot simply change the liturgy as he wants. He has to defend those rights in the church that have been preserved in a perennial way. He must mention this so that no future pope can abolish a traditional right cherished by the church and celebrated universally, almost in the Roman church, for centuries. He can reform, but he cannot simply abrogate or abolish something that has been preserved and celebrated for so long. This is just an example. Then, the church could, for example, prescribe that in the moment of his solemn enthronement or coronation, he receives the Cathedral of Peter.
The Cathedral of Peter is in the Basilica of St Peter in the Vatican. Behind it is the altar of the cathedral. The main task of the pope is to be a teacher, a defender of the truth, and to strengthen his brethren. This is the cathedra Petri. Therefore, it would be more fitting to say that he is put in the cathedral to be a teacher. Coronation could also be understood in a secular way, as a monarch. In any case, in this formal, public ceremony, the church could prescribe that the pope pronounce a specific formula or oath in the presence of the entire church. It would be very fitting and would give a good example for the bishops and for the faithful.
Dr. Taylor Marshall: Yes, Your Excellency, you mentioned the liturgy, and of course, we love the Roman patrimony, the traditional Roman Rite, which includes the traditional Latin Mass, but all seven sacraments, the bravery, exorcism, and many rites of the church also. The Eastern Rites have been, you might even say, modified or corrupted in the Catholic Church. It seems that we need a pope who will reinstate the integrity of the ancient rites as they have been received over the centuries. If Francis does not open up access to the traditional Latin Mass and the traditional Roman Rite sacraments, would the next pope, on the very first day, simply get out a sheet of paper and write a motu proprio, I hereby authorize, commend, and exhort every priest of the Roman Rite to celebrate the traditional Latin Mass in accord with the text of 1945, sign it, and on day one have that freedom again? Or should he do more to correct the Novus Ordo Missal of 1969, 1970, and abolish it? I am aware that there are hundreds of millions of Catholics in places like Africa and Asia who do not have much familiarity with the traditional Roman Rite. How do you begin to course-correct the liturgical question in the church?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: It is very important because, as we celebrate, so we believe, and therefore it is necessarily linked to both. The new pope must do something to correct the deficient way the majority of Catholic churches worship God, in a very deficient, more Protestantizing manner. It is valid, it is not heretical, but it is deficient, coming closer to the Protestant understanding and style. This is dangerous. It cannot continue. The pope must correct this and save the church from this danger, and save souls. I do not know if he will do this on the first day; it is up to his prudence, but he should do this. First, he should simply abrogate all restrictions issued by his predecessors regarding the so-called traditional form of the Roman Rite, both Holy Mass, sacraments, ordinations, and the entire traditional Roman Rite. He must also abolish all restrictions that bishops imposed in their dioceses that limit or obstruct the traditional liturgy. This is important to save this treasure of the entire church, the millennium-old liturgy. It is not only the Tridentine liturgy. We have missals printed and manuscripts before the Council of Trent with the same Ordo Missae. It is another missal, yes, but the same Ordo Missae, and therefore we must keep it.
Then, it is also necessary that the future pope improve the Novus Ordo to make it more Catholic in style, to bring it closer to the traditional Mass, the Mass of all ages. First, he should make the celebration ad orientem compulsory. This would change very deeply the mindset of priests and faithful in a Catholic way, to celebrate the Mass as adoration of God and as a sacrifice, not as a meal. Then, he should restore communion kneeling and on the tongue exclusively, to protect the Blessed Sacrament from dangers and desecrations, such as communion in the hand.
It is also necessary to restore the sacredness and sublimity of all the liturgy within the sanctuary, so that only male servers are present, which has been the constant tradition since the Old Testament and New Testament for 2,000 years. The Catholic liturgy must be freed from the influence of feminism, which crept in through female lectors and other services, under the pretext of active participation. This is contrary to the apostolic tradition of the church and must be purified.
Next, it would be important to abolish the Novus Ordo offertory prayers, which are not basically Catholic, but drawn from Jewish prayers and Protestant meal prayers. They are not heretical, but it is not fitting when we pray at the altar before consecration and the sacrifice. These must be abolished and replaced with the traditional offertory prayers. The Roman Canon must be used exclusively in the Novus Ordo, in Latin, and in silence. These are basic, necessary steps. With these, the Novus Ordo would be very close, externally, to the traditional Mass. Over time, a unified calendar and lectionary could be established. There could be two variations of the Roman liturgy: the untouched traditional form, preserved out of reverence, and the more widespread form of the Roman Rite, which would have the same text, rites, and gestures, with small rubrical adaptations and more use of the vernacular. A balance must be found so that the liturgy preserves the traditional spirit and is kept throughout the world. At least, Latin should remain as a mark of unity of all Catholics, but not for the entire Mass. How this is implemented will depend on the prudent decisions of the pope and bishops.
Dr. Taylor Marshall: Yes, if I were pope, I would say, and if you’re a cardinal of the church, you must celebrate the traditional Roman Rite sacraments to show your solidarity with the Roman See. If you do not celebrate only the traditional Roman Rite, you lose your cardinal hat. Then I would be able to sift out and get the ones back to the Novus Ordo. I think you would want to have ad orientem, no female servers. You would want the seven Roman offertory prayers in Latin, the Roman Canon in Latin, and no Memorial Acclamation. That right there would help. I think also the ninefold Kyrie, instead of the sixfold Kyrie, would be important. You could maybe allow some vernacular for the transition, but if you had the offertory and the Canon, and maybe some parts of the Mass like the Kyrie, which is Greek, the Gloria, maybe the Agnus Dei in Latin, you could, over the years, bring everything into conformity with the old Missal in a way that would not shock people on day one, going from the Novus Ordo to the 1950 Mass. People might agree or disagree, but certainly the offertory and the Roman Canon in Latin would have to be enforced right away.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, I think it would be indispensable. These two points, the communion on the tongue and the absence of female servers, would already give the essence and substance of the traditional liturgy. The rest, regarding the use of Latin, should be implemented step by step and decided by the church authority.
Dr. Taylor Marshall: Yes. Are you hopeful as we move into the next five to ten years of the church that we will see these retractions, clarifications, the lifting up of the Sacred Liturgy, the reverence, the protection of the Eucharist? Are you hopeful that in the next five to ten years we could have this, or should we be prepared to suffer, endure, and strengthen ourselves by catechesis and tradition as we look through the next ten years?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: As Jesus said, it is not up to us to know the times of God. We do not know the times of God. It is up to us to stick faithfully to the traditional faith of all times, to the Mass of all ages, and to live this, and to be joyful and proud of our Catholic faith, which no one can take from us. If God asks us to live in the exile of Babylon or the exile of Avignon, we will continue and offer this for the future renewal of the church, universally, the renewal of holiness, of doctrine, of liturgy, as it was and as it will be, because the church is divine. Surely we do not know the time, and in the meantime, we simply offer our longing for the beauty of the church. Like Psalm 136 in the Vulgate, in Babylon, they were hanging up their harps on the trees and weeping when recalling the beauty of Zion, the beauty of divine worship in the temple of Jerusalem. Those exiles were remembering and weeping and longing for this beauty. So we can also offer our tears and our hopes for its restoration, and it will come. It will come.
Dr. Taylor Marshall: Oh, beautiful. Well, Your Excellency, would you maybe give us some closing words, a blessing, anything you like, in the last two minutes?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, I would encourage all of you to continue, in spite of confusion, to love the Catholic Church, to love the Pope, to love the Holy See; this is our home. I would call all of you to a kind of spiritual crusade to implore the grace of Pope Francis that he may, before he goes to the judgment of God, do the necessary rectification and retraction. At the same time, let us implore that God may grant the church a good, holy, and courageous successor to Pope Francis, and not just one successor, but an era of holy popes in the future. Let us pray for this, let us implore God, let us storm heaven, and let us believe in the power of prayer and the grace of God.
Dr. Taylor Marshall: Amen. Amen, would you give us your blessing, Excellency?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Dominus vobiscum
Dr. Taylor Marshall: Et cum spiritu tuo et
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Et benedicta Dei omnipotentis Patris et Fili et Spiritus Sancti descendat super vos et maneat semper. Amen. Praise be Jesus Christ.
Dr. Taylor Marshall: Now and forever. Your Excellency, one of the things I always do is encourage people to pray the rosary every single day. It is one of the most important sacramentals in our Catholic life. I would love for you to encourage people to pray the rosary every day.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, this is a great intention, as I mentioned.
Dr. Taylor Marshall: A great intention. Thank you so much, Your Excellency. I encourage people to follow you. You have a website. What is the name of the website?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: I have no Twitter. I have no social media.
Dr. Taylor Marshall: Oh, you don’t have social media? Okay,
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Nothing. Therefore, if something appears, it is fake. I have only one website, gloria.io. It contains my texts, articles, some videos, and my catechesis, which I do every month with the Confraternity of Our Lady of Fatima. Every 13th of the month, I do catechesis, and the next month is a session of questions and answers. This is published only on this website. It is the only place where I am. We must be careful because sometimes fake accounts appear. Please use this website for my authentic articles and videos.
Dr. Taylor Marshall: Great. Thank you very much, everybody. Thanks for watching. Remember our Lord Jesus Christ as the light of the world and the salt of the earth. Go out there and be salty. God bless. Thank you, Excellency, we hope to have you back again.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: You’re welcome, and God bless you.
Dr. Taylor Marshall: Happy birthday.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Thank you.
Dr. Taylor Marshall: God bless.