Raymond Arroyo: He is the Auxiliary Bishop of Astana, Kazakhstan, and he joins me to weigh in on the agendas that are being advanced via this synodality movement and the threatened excommunications of the traditional Society of Saint Pius the Tenth, should they move ahead with illicit episcopal ordinations. Please welcome back to the program Bishop Athanasius Schneider. Your Excellency, the Vatican Synod Study Group Number Nine released its final report last week. We covered this, but the document was drafted without a single representative of Courage. Courage International is the Church’s canonically approved apostolate for Catholics with same sex attraction. They dismiss Courage’s work in the report as reparative therapy. Your Excellency, what was your initial reaction when you read that Study Group Nine report? You’ve since said there is an echo of the spirit, or the serpent, rather, in the Garden of Eden.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, my reaction, and evidently, when someone is reading the entire text, it is written not by a Catholic, not even by a Christian, but it is a propaganda text, very carefully and cunningly using some traditional documents or biblical expressions, but basically to promote the acceptance of homosexual ideology, which is a de facto denial of the order of creation, and even a revolt against the divinely established beautiful order of the two sexes. There are not three sexes. And this is the commandment of God and the wisdom of God. And now this document from the Holy See, even though it is a study document, nevertheless gives a platform, and even invites those persons who openly live so-called same-sex unions to give their propaganda, and they even in the text criticize Courage, which is a very meritorious Catholic organization to help these people.
Raymond Arroyo: As you mentioned, Bishop, the report features two testimonies, both from men living in same sex partnerships. Diane Montagna is reporting that Father James Martin may have been the, quote, mastermind behind the inclusion of these two men in the report. Now, the Secretariat for Synodality, which is a Vatican office, a dicastery, is distancing itself from the report, saying the study groups work independently. Your Excellency, your reaction to all of this.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, when we read the text, I read it carefully, and there is no word of repentance. How can it be a Catholic and a Christian text without the first word of God incarnate to all humanity, repent? And this is the message of salvation and hope. There is no word of repentance. There is no word of chastity present. There is not even a word of conversion. The only meaning of conversion is intra-human relational conversion, but absent is conversion toward God, which is the fundamental way of the Gospel of salvation. And so this document is a highly ideological document to promote a markedly anthropocentric new religion of man, and they dare to declare in this document that the source of revelation is human experience. This is heresy. This is philosophy.
Raymond Arroyo: The report was billed and advertised by Father James Martin and others as the first time a Vatican document had featured homosexual people or same sex couples. It was published by the Holy See, and some Catholic leaders have tried to present it as if it has great weight. Does it?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: No, it is technically not a Magisterium text, because it is a text of a study group. But nevertheless, it was issued by an organ of the Holy See, the Synod Secretariat, and not everyone, even the majority of simple Catholics, understands the distinction between what is a Magisterium text and what is issued by a Vatican study group. And therefore, the message given to the entire world is that now the Holy See is accepting de facto same sex relationships, same sex activity, and the agenda of the so-called LGBTQ ideology, which is an un-Christian ideology.
Raymond Arroyo: The report also suggests, Your Excellency, that sin in a same sex relationship is not the relationship itself, but a lack of faith. What does that even mean? And is that Catholic teaching?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: This is wrong. This is heresy, because a homosexual relationship is against the commandment of God. It is sin in itself, and therefore it would be completely naive to assume that in a homosexual stable relationship, they are living in perfect chastity without committing sin. This is outside any reality. And therefore, stating that sin does not consist in same-sex relationships is against revealed truth, against experience, and against common sense. And then saying that sin consists in lack of faith is close to Martin Luther, who said sola fides, just have faith and trust, and do not concern yourself with sins or deeds. This is not Catholic at all.
Raymond Arroyo: You’ve warned that if the Holy See does not unequivocally condemn this report, faithful Catholics will lose confidence in the Vatican hierarchy. The Synod office now says they are trying to create distance and that these study groups work independently. Is that enough for you?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: It is not convincing at all. It is officially under the Vatican dicastery or organ, which is called the Secretariat of Synod at this is officially even published, but of course, as a study group, this is only a trickery to close the eyes of us and then basically to transmit and to be a platform of propaganda of this homosexual ideology to infect ever more the acceptance of this style of life in the Catholic Church.
Raymond Arroyo: Your Excellency, I want to move on to the Society of Saint Pius the Tenth. Just this week, the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith under Cardinal Victor Manuel Fernandez issued a formal statement, and he said the planned July first episcopal consecrations constitute a schismatic act, and carry the penalty of excommunication. Do you believe that the SSPX will heed that warning and stop going forward?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: No, I believe they will carry out the consecrations. And that it is schismatic, I do not agree, because the Superior General, Father Pagliarani, published a declaration of faith, and when you read it, it is completely Catholic. It expresses devotion to the Holy Father, recognizes his authority, and asks him to strengthen them in the Catholic faith, which they profess, and what they profess is the constant doctrine of the Church.
Raymond Arroyo: The Holy See’s position is that by ordaining these new bishops, they are acting outside of the Holy Father’s wishes, so they are being disobedient, and therefore, that is what they are being threatened with excommunication for. Put that in context for us.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: No, because this is a very narrow view of schism. The traditional view of the Church was never that disobedience to the Pope, even in the case of illicit episcopal consecration, was considered in itself schismatic. In older canon law, illicit episcopal consecration against the will of the Pope was punished with suspension, not excommunication. And the SSPX has repeatedly stated that they do not intend to establish a parallel hierarchy. They do not seek jurisdiction, only sacramental administration of ordinations and confirmations, and they ask to remain in communion with the Pope.
Raymond Arroyo: Father Jerry Murray has said the SSPX could do what other groups do, fully adhere to the sacraments and tradition, while also obeying the Holy Father. What would you counsel Pope Leo to do in this matter?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: The problem is deeper. There are ambiguities in some council texts, and there are ambiguities in the post-conciliar magisterium, and the Fraternity of Saint Peter is forbidden by the Holy See to express criticism or constructive critique. I mean, they must accept all these teachings of the council and of the post-conciliar magisterium, and this is a problem. There are ambiguities; we must address them, we must be honest, and therefore we must be thankful to the Society of Pius the 10th to address them publicly. We must have the freedom to discuss in the church, and therefore I think Holy Father, I made an appeal to the Holy Father and I wrote him a letter recently asking him to please be a generous pastor and give them permission as a first step to integrate them, to create an atmosphere of mutual trust, at the same time when Pope Leo and the Vatican are promoting the inclusivity of the synodal path of synodal methods and are generous with the German synodal way, generous with the Communist Chinese party to grant them to ordain bishops.
There is such a contrast, and to the faithful of the Society of Pius the 10th, who love the Pope, who pray for the Pope, who want simply to have the guarantee to transmit the faith of all times without any ambiguity. I stress, without any ambiguity, and they are denied, and now they are punished. And so I repeat what Saint Basil stated in the first century during the Arian crisis. He said at that time the only crime which is punished in our time is the faithful fidelity to the faith and traditions of our fathers, whereas every blasphemy has free speech in the church. But now it seems that the Vatican, the Pope, shows his power. We have the power, we will not allow, we will excommunicate you and doubt. And this is not synodal, this is not pastoral. And I think if the Pope does this and does not grant them and excommunicates them, this will go down in history as a huge error of rigidity, pastoral rigidity, and one-sided severity towards tradition in the church. And I apply, I ask, Holy Father, Holy Father, please avoid such a wound in the church, which you can avoid.
Raymond Arroyo: Bishop Athanasius Schneider, I totally understand your point, particularly the great mercy shown to the German bishops who are engaged in active heresy, and of course, the capitulation to the Chinese bishops. The Chinese regime is literally choosing bishops, and the Vatican rubber stamps them. But I also see the point of wanting unity of practice and uniformity, which requires obeying the Holy Father. I see all of these sides, but it’s an open question. I thank you for being here, and certainly for offering your plea to the Holy Father in this moment, and we will check in with you in the days ahead. Thank you.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: You’re welcome.