Matt Fradd: What do you think a genuine path toward unity on liturgical questions should look like?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: I had a private audience with Pope Leo on the 18th of December, and I spoke with him about the issue of the traditional Latin Mass.
Matt Fradd: What is the crisis that the Church is currently undergoing?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: First, we must again be convinced that truth is in itself unchangeable.
Matt Fradd: There is a growing concern about the Islamification of parts of Europe. How should Catholics respond?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: It is orchestrated very clearly by powerful political elites with a special, concrete agenda to de-Christianize Europe.
Matt Fradd: What advice would you give to young married couples?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: We need Christian families with children. This is the future of the Church.
Matt Fradd: Your Excellency, thank you so much for being on the show.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: You are welcome.
Matt Fradd: Let us jump into it. In your book, Christus Vincet, you speak about four great crises in the history of the Church. First, the Arian crisis, in which a great number of the world’s bishops collaborated with the heresy of Arianism. Second, the dark age of the tenth century, when the papacy was occupied by, as you say, deeply immoral Roman clans and families. Third, the Avignon exile, which led to the Great Western Schism and severely damaged the Church, contributing to the Protestant Revolution. And finally, you speak about the crisis that we are living through today. So my question for you is, what is the crisis that the Church is currently undergoing, and what should be done about it?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, I think that basically the crisis, the root, is relativism, the crisis of truth. As Pope Benedict XVI, when he was Cardinal Ratzinger, coined the expression the dictatorship of relativism, he was referring to the secular world, and this has been true since modern times, especially in the twentieth century. But this so-called relativism crept in and infiltrated the life of the Church visibly, recognizable since the Council, partly in texts and affirmations that are objectively ambiguous in their reading, so they can be interpreted in different senses. This is already a manifestation that leads to relativism.
After the Council, for about sixty years, this attitude of relativism has existed, that truth is not constant, that truth changes according to historical context or historical fashions. This is now happening in the Church on many levels, in doctrine, in morals, and in liturgy. I consider the deepest root of the problem, the crisis.
When we speak about a crisis, like a sickness, a physician or a doctor must not only make a diagnosis, but must go deeper to identify the causes and then heal it. We must do it in our time.
Another root by which I would characterize the current crisis is naturalism. This attitude was already present in the history of the Church in the so-called Pelagianism, the heresy of Pelagius, against whom Saint Augustine fought until the end of his life. It was an attempt to reduce the entire meaning of Christian life to nature, de facto abolishing the supernatural or grace, and diluting grace simply into nature. We are then focused only on the temporal order.
This is something we can perceive as a very visible characteristic of the current crisis, this so-called new Pelagianism, or even a Pelagianization of the Church. This means that issues of nature and the temporal order, such as climate and migrants, are placed in the primary order, to the harm of eternal values and the eternal truth of the life of the soul in grace.
This is our crisis. I would say these are the two roots: relativism regarding truth itself, and the Pelagianization of the life of the Church.
Matt Fradd: Thank you. And what do you think can be done about it? Maybe some advice you might have for priests who are watching and for laypeople.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, first we must again be convinced that truth is in itself unchangeable, the same as mathematical truth is unchangeable. No one will concede that in mathematics you can change it, at least those who have some money in their bank account will never concede it. The creator of the laws of nature and mathematics is God, and this same creator has revealed to us supernatural truth. Which is more unchangeable?
As Christ Himself says in Holy Scripture, Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. This is also true liberty and freedom, which the human spirit discovers when it says, I discover the truth which is always the same. This gives me a foundation. It gives me strength. It gives me conviction. It gives me freedom. It gives me happiness. Only truth can guide you to happiness.
Therefore, Saint Augustine, who went through many errors of intellect in his life, was a Manichean in a sect, then he began to doubt, but he truly found the truth. He coined this beautiful expression, Gaudium Veritatis, in Latin. It means my joy in the truth, and this will be for all eternity. What will be our happiness in eternity? We will see the truth, the unchangeable truth, which will be unending for us.
Here on earth, God gave us unchangeable truths that are valid forever. The same is true in love. We are created for love, and every human being who truly loves someone wants that love not to end, that it not change tomorrow. Love is also truth. When you love truly, we say truly loving. Love and truth are inseparable.
We do not want the truth of our love to change, so that tomorrow someone says, now we change the time and I can love you in another way, less, or love you beside others. This is impossible for true marriage, for true love between a couple.
Therefore, we must regain the truth that truth is unchangeable. Of course, we can discover more and more of the beauty of truth. We can grow in this. This is the task of our Christian faith: to discover the depth and beauty of the truth. But the truth itself is not changed. It simply becomes more beautiful and more stable.
The second point I would recommend to all priests and to all who assist is not to forget the aim for which we were created. We were created for heaven, for eternal happiness. This can only be achieved through a supernatural life.
Today, there are many concerns for health, for bodily health, and this is good, even if sometimes it is exaggerated. But our body will end, we will die, and it will return to dust. This is a fact no one can deny. Yet for this short and corruptible bodily life, we take so much care, while our soul is immortal.
Our soul is created in the image and likeness of God, and we are destined for eternal life in God, in the Holy Trinity, later together with our body after the resurrection, but now primarily in our soul. This is the most important issue here on earth. This is the first task and mission of the Church: to transmit divine eternal life to souls, so that we can already live here with God in a supernatural way, in grace.
These are the two points I would like to stress.
Matt Fradd: Beautifully put. Thank you. I would like to move on to talking about the Latin Mass. His Holiness Pope Leo recently convened an extraordinary consistory of cardinals in January, which was the first of his pontificate and the first full gathering of the College of Cardinals since his election. Liturgy was reportedly part of the agenda. I have not been following this closely, and I know you were not present, but have you heard anything about what was discussed, and how do you see those conversations shaping the Church’s liturgical life moving forward, especially regarding the Latin Mass?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: First, I have to say that I had a private audience with Pope Leo on the eighteenth of December, and I spoke with him about the issue of the traditional Latin Mass. I encouraged him to promote and to give us liturgical peace in the Church, with a peaceful coexistence of both forms. This is an issue of justice and peace.
I perceived that he was listening very carefully and showed understanding toward me. He then told me himself that he had convoked the consistory for January, where this issue would be discussed. The Pope told me this in December. Apparently, and de facto, it was not done at that time because of a shortage of time. I understand that the consistory lasted one and a half days, and they preferred that the cardinals speak about evangelization and synodality. I lament that they did not take up the issue of the holy liturgy and of doctrine.
I think this should be done first, because how can we evangelize when there is such confusion regarding truth and doctrine, regarding what we shall preach? Within the Church, there is enormous confusion regarding the basic truth that Jesus Christ is the only Savior. He is the only way established by God explicitly for all humankind, without exception, for Jews, for Muslims, for all. This is the only way that God established and explicitly commanded us to follow. It is so clear.
Of course, we must transmit this with love and respect for all people, but we must transmit it. This is the first truth, and it is very confused in the Church. Then there is the other truth regarding the moral law. How can we convincingly preach the Gospel to non-Christians when, within the Church, some bishops and priests promote moral relativism, saying that the sixth commandment of God is no longer to be observed?
When we are honest, this is what is happening when they promote that divorced people can go to Communion while living in an objectively adulterous union, despite having a valid marriage. In doing so, we are de facto undermining and denying the indissolubility of marriage and the holiness of the Eucharist. This is one example.
Another example is the promotion of the LGBT agenda. This is present in the life of the Church today, even in the Basilica of Saint Peter. Last September, there was a kind of gay march by these organizations inside the Basilica of Saint Peter, and it was tolerated by the Vatican. There is also a document about blessing same sex couples. It is said that it is not the couples but the persons, but the title itself is a blessing of same sex couples. The title says it clearly.
Then they explain that it is not couples, but this is the same as saying there is a bicycle with two wheels, but I am not blessing the bicycle, only the two wheels. This is trickery. It is an insult to reason and to the intellect. These are only some examples, but these issues are not being addressed.
I repeat, how can we promote and preach the Gospel to non-Christians when in the life of the Church we promote such enormous relativism and contradiction? This must be addressed first. The Church must clarify the main points of doctrine before evangelizing.
The second task, or even the first task, of the Church in order, is worship. We must reform worship so that it is truly Christocentric and not anthropocentric, as it is in most cases in the life of the Catholic Church today, with the modern liturgy. Only when we put God and Christ at the center of our worship, in the manner and spirit of the liturgy, will it truly attract people to the truth.
The truth itself attracts. Ambiguity does not attract. No one will give their life for something ambiguous. Therefore, I hope that by the next consistory, which the Pope has convoked for June, these two issues will be addressed: clarity in doctrine and the establishment of true liturgical peace in the Church, giving full citizenship to the traditional form of the liturgy.
Matt Fradd: Yes, I could not agree more. In a recent interview with Elise Ann Allen of Crux, Pope Leo observed that debates over the liturgy have become increasingly polarized. In your view, and I think I already know the answer, but I will ask anyway, have the restrictions placed on the Latin Mass under Pope Francis contributed to this polarization, or helped to ease it? And what do you think a genuine path toward unity on liturgical questions should look like?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Exactly. It is proven. It is a fact that the document Traditionis Custodes from Pope Francis, which very strongly limited the use of the traditional Latin Mass, even increased polarization. Pope Benedict XVI gave peace, and it was quite peaceful. But then, probably a group of clerics, bishops, and cardinals who had another agenda, who hate what is holy, liturgical, and traditional, put forward a new agenda to fight against it.
They started with Traditionis Custodes, an idea, a war against the traditional liturgy. By doing this, they marginalized many good Catholics, young families, and young people. Therefore, I think the opposite would happen if Pope Leo were to give real freedom again to the traditional liturgy, with the same rights and dignity as the Novus Ordo. They would coexist peacefully, develop, and grow.
Matt Fradd: Excellent. I would like to move on to the topic of Islam. There is a growing concern about the Islamification of parts of Europe, especially as Christian culture and religious freedom appear to be in retreat. From your perspective, what do you see as the genuine dangers of this trend, and how should Catholics respond in a way that upholds charity toward migrants while also defending Christian faith, culture, and social order?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: First, we have to say that this movement of immigration of an overwhelmingly Muslim population to Europe has been happening for decades. It is orchestrated very clearly by powerful political elites and by the European Union, with a special and concrete agenda, which is ultimately to de-Christianize Europe. This process had already started before, of course, and with the help of the growing Muslim presence, it is accelerating. They have more children, and they are growing in number.
They are already being introduced in Europe, in Germany, France, Italy, and other countries, in schools where there is a considerable presence of Islamic students, certain prescriptions of the Islamic religion, regarding food, Ramadan, and public life. In Germany, they have already started to appoint imams as so-called chaplains for the army. We see here a systematic Islamization, with one concrete aim: to de-Christianize Europe.
Of course, these people themselves are not guilty. Simple people come to Europe because they want a better life, often for economic reasons. But they bring with them strong religious convictions. This is the danger for us, that the Christian tradition and heritage, especially in Europe, will be weakened or lost.
Therefore, politicians must defend Christian heritage and should help Islamic countries economically so that people do not need to emigrate to Europe. This is not being done. We see that this is a concrete political agenda.
We also have to know the history of Islam and the essence of the Islamic religion. For believing Muslims who truly know the Quran and Sharia law, the world consists of two parts: the house of Islam and what is not Islamic. The aim is to transform the entire world into the house of Islam, which they believe to be the true religion. This aim must be kept in mind.
History has proven that where Islam attains political power, Sharia law is implemented. In such systems, non-Islamic populations become second-class citizens, or at least do not have the same rights. We see this clearly in the Near East and in other Islamic countries. This is a fact.
Therefore, politicians in Europe and in the United States, which are historically Christian countries, must be watchful and vigilant. We can accept migrants, but in a balanced manner, not in mass numbers. Each case should be examined to see whether there is a real necessity, even for a Muslim family.
At the same time, migrants must be asked to integrate into the Christian culture of Europe. Not to become Christians, but to respect and integrate into the culture, laws, and way of life of the countries where they go. They can practice their religion freely, without restriction, but they must truly integrate into the culture and laws of their host countries.
Matt Fradd: Well, there are obviously many serious issues that we are facing in the Church and in our respective countries today, but there are also, thankfully, many real and legitimate reasons for hope. The Catholic Herald recently published an article entitled, More Americans Joining the Catholic Church Than Leaving for the First Time in Decades.
I have recently returned from the Fellowship of Catholic University Students’ annual SEEK conference. This year, they drew more than twenty-six thousand attendees across three United States cities, setting an attendance record and marking a twenty-four percent increase over last year, which is terrific. My question is, what in your estimation is causing this surge of conversions, and what advice do you have for new Catholics who are watching this interview?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: I think it is the thirst for truth. Young people today are living in what is called modern culture, which I would call an unculture that has existed for decades. This permissivism and relativism cause young people to lose any foundation beneath their feet and any sense of security. This is contrary to our nature, especially for serious young people who desire certainty and stability.
Without certainty, one cannot build a family or even relationships. I believe there is a deep desire in the younger generation, even though they are surrounded by moral and doctrinal relativism, for clarity, security, and beauty in truth. God has inscribed this desire into every human soul. This is one of the reasons that attracts so many young people to the Catholic Church, including the conversions and the participation in conferences such as those you mentioned in the United States and in Europe.
We can observe this especially among young men. In Europe, I have contact with several solid initiatives, including good YouTube channels and programs focused on apologetics and Christian values. For me, this is a sign that God is not abandoning us. In the midst of crisis and confusion, there is also light and hope.
To those who come into the Church, my first advice is to deepen your knowledge of the truth. There is an immense treasure of Catholic truth accumulated over two thousand years. Please read the Church Fathers, Saint Augustine, Saint Thomas Aquinas, and other excellent writers throughout history. One can also mention Chesterton, Hilaire Belloc, and your great American bishop, Fulton Sheen, who I have heard may be beatified this year.
Read the good old catechisms, which are crystal clear. They will give you a solid foundation. Also, read about the examples of martyrs and heroic figures in the history of the Church. Saint Thomas More is one such example, a man for all seasons. There are many others we could name. This is a beautiful heritage that you can draw from.
My second piece of advice, besides growing in knowledge of the faith and Christian culture, is to lead a serious Christian moral life. This brings happiness. Catholics have the great privilege of the Sacrament of Penance, of Confession. What a gift of God for our weakness. We must desire to live a good moral life, but people are still weak. Through this beautiful gift of our merciful Father, the Sacrament of Confession, the more we use it, the more we grow in maturity and in our Christian life.
This is inseparably linked to the Holy Eucharist. Be truly attached to it, and you will see how happy you will be.
Finally, my third piece of advice is directed especially to young people. We urgently need good families. Found good families. Pray to God that He will send you a truly Christian wife, and for women, a good Christian husband. We need Christian families with children. This is the future of the Church. From these families will come good priests. This is the hope of the Church, and through this, the Church will be renewed. Amen.
Matt Fradd: Beautiful advice. Now you have written a beautiful little book, which I bought a couple of months ago and have been really enjoying. It is a book of meditations on the mysteries of the Holy Rosary called Salve Regina. I highly recommend people pick it up. My question is, what advice and encouragement would you offer to those who have never prayed the rosary before, or who wonder why this prayer is so powerful, and are wondering about incorporating it into their daily life?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, because it is evident that the rosary consists of, I would say, divine prayer simply. It is not human. You imagine you repeat divine words, the Our Father in heaven. It is divine directly. Hail Mary, it is from heaven. Saint Gabriel spoke this, and then only the last, pray for us sinners. This is so important. And then glory, glory to the Father. This is the synthesis of the entire Christian faith, the Holy Trinity. With only this, glory be to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, you profess the entire Christian faith in the shortest synthesis, you see. And this, from this, mainly and basically consists of the prayer of the rosary.
You repeat it like the psalms are inspired by God. And there are psalms, because some people say, why do we have to repeat it, it is not biblical. It is biblical. Take Psalm 135, there is always the same, because he is merciful, every verse, so you repeat 30 times the same. And this is inspired by the Holy Spirit. Therefore, we need this like children repeat their prayers, their petitions to their parents.
So please pray this in a spirit of children, as our Lord said, when you are not like children, you will not come to the kingdom of heaven. And then our Lord gave us several examples, like this widow. She is coming and knocking and repeating her petitions, and then the Lord grants this. And so is the rosary. We repeat it in faith. Also, to repeat the same prayer, which is from heaven, the Hail Mary, always gives you calm in your soul. It is calming.
You can really say, even if I repeat, it is not necessarily an intellectual prayer in the first place. It is a prayer of your soul. So you repeat it confidently and take this mystery, these truths, let us say Christ incarnated. It is such a beautiful truth. You can reflect on it while praying ten times the Hail Mary, and so on.
Therefore, and besides this, Our Lady several times came to admonish us, to give us this advice as a good mother, in Lourdes, in Fatima, asking us, begging us, her children, please pray this prayer. It is so simple. It is a prayer even for those who cannot read. It is the prayer of the simple one, and God loves the simple one. With the simple prayer, God grants so many graces. The Holy Scripture says to the humble one, God grants graces.
And we have in history so many proven miracles with the prayer of the rosary. Therefore, I would recommend that those who do not know, please try a little by little to start to pray it. It may be one decade and meditate on one of the beautiful mysteries of our redemption, then two decades, and so on, increase. You will see that it gives you so many graces and peace.
Then you can concretely link with the prayer of the rosary a concrete intention for what you want to pray. We have so many intentions in our families, in our friends, to pray for them. But it must be prayed with perseverance, not only for one day. Perseverance, when you pray perseverantly for a longer time the rosary for a concrete intention for a longer time, then God will grant you.
Matt Fradd: Beautiful. You mentioned the importance of good Catholic marriages earlier. What advice would you give to young married couples who are trying to build a faithful, stable marriage in a culture that often works against permanent sacrifice and openness to life?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, well, I would say to these young people, you will enter into a school of love, and do not forget, it is a school you must learn every day. But it is so beautiful to learn love. It is so important for a good relationship, for the husband to use less I, less, and to think more of you. This helps, and it must be learned.
I would say to young couples, when you conclude your marriage on the first day, the sacrament, ask the Lord for the grace that you increase every day in love for one another. You cannot say that love is only emotional. All good couples who are already aged say, yes, true love started later, when there were troubles, when there were difficulties. There, true love started.
Therefore, I would say, ask the Lord on the day of your wedding for the grace that your mutual love really increases every day, together with the love for God. And then also, when you have children, when the first child comes, ask both, let us increase our true love for this child, and for the next, and for the next. Your heart will open more.
And of course, last but not least, the center of your home, of your love, is Christ. He is the center. Have nothing to fear, dear couples, when you put God really in the center of your home and of your love.
Matt Fradd: Beautiful advice. We live in a time when Catholics can follow Church news 24 hours a day, often in real time, and a lot of the news is confusing, frustrating, and alarming. What would you say to Catholics who find that constantly consuming Church news is robbing them of their peace, their prayer life, and their trust in God, and who are becoming sad, sour, and negative?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, I would say it is not necessary to follow Church news continuously. Our ancestors, the people in the Middle Ages, and even until one hundred years ago, there was no internet. There was no television. Even radio was very early, and people lived very happily as Catholics. They had faith. They did a lot of good works. They had time to do good works, to help others, to raise children, to develop culture, and so on.
So I think this addiction to the news is not so healthy. I would say moderate it. Moderate it, and then when you hear some negative news, take it as an occasion to pray, let us say, for this priest, for the bishop, even for the Pope, for the Holy See. Say, I will pray, and then God will intervene. It is all in the hands of God. So moderate and reduce the consumption of news.
Matt Fradd: Good advice. Many Catholics today have become disillusioned or discouraged by what they are seeing happening in the Church, I think, especially under the pontificate of Pope Francis. Some are now considering leaving for Protestant communions or Eastern Orthodoxy. What advice would you give to Catholics who are tempted to walk away, and how would you encourage them to remain faithful in this time of confusion?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Well, I would say then something is wrong with your faith, simply. You have to be honest. When you really believe that the Church is divine and that the Catholic Church is the only Church which Christ founded here on earth, then when you truly believe as a Catholic, you can never abandon the Church. It is a grievous sin against faith.
You have to be honest and humble and examine your faith. If you say, I have a very weak faith, then be honest about it. A true Catholic will never abandon the Catholic Church. You cannot, because first, you are baptized and you have an indelible mark of baptism. You are incorporated into the Mystical Body of Christ. How can you abandon Christ? The Mystical Body of Christ is the Catholic Church.
And then the Church is our mother. Of course, the crisis of the Church is very grievous. No one can deny it. But let us say our Mother Church is now in some way tied up, humiliated by her own children, sons, priests, clergy, and so on. I will not abandon her when my mother is in need. I will not abandon the house and say, my brothers are behaving badly toward my mother and doing crazy things. No. I will remain. I will defend the Catholic faith in spite of all this.
You know this simple story about Napoleon. When Napoleon arrested Pope Pius VII and brought him close to Paris under house arrest in the Castle of Fontainebleau, Napoleon came to demand signatures from the Pope. The Pope denied them because they would harm the Church. One day, when Napoleon was at the height of his power in Europe, he came again and demanded something harmful to the Church. Thanks be to God, the Pope resisted.
Napoleon became furious, shouting and threatening, saying, I will destroy the Church. At the side of the Pope was Cardinal Consalvi, and the cardinal said, Your Majesty, what we have tried to do until now and did not succeed, you will not succeed either.
Matt Fradd: This is very good. Thank you.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, this is a historical fact, and we must not forget it. Therefore, when we love the Church, we will never abandon her. We will stay and say, with my fidelity, I have the Catechism. I stick to it. I have the sacraments. I have the Eucharist. I have Our Lady and the rosary. So I do not have to go to the Protestants or to the Orthodox, because I know my Catholic faith. For this Catholic faith, I am ready to give my life for Christ, for the truth. Therefore, I encourage these Catholics to examine their position again. A true Catholic will never abandon his mother when she is in trouble.
Matt Fradd: This has been so lovely to talk to you. I have one final question. You spoke earlier about one sign of hope being young men who are defending the faith and so on. Let us take one more look at this. In the midst of all this confusion and all the challenges in the Church today, what are some other signs of hope that you see that give you confidence in the Church’s future?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, besides this new movement with young people, especially young men, there is also a movement among young families that I am seeing all over the world. God is awakening young families who are serious about educating their children, even large families with a large number of children. This is really a sign of hope.
Also, slowly in some countries, I can observe even non-Christians becoming Christians, including those from a Muslim background in Europe, for example, in France. This is also a sign of hope.
And I would say young seminarians. The younger generation of seminarians, almost all over the world, instinctively desire tradition and solid doctrine. They also have a desire for the traditional liturgy. This is growing very much now. Young priests as well, even though they are repressed in some way in their seminaries and by their bishops, nevertheless, this movement is growing, and this gives hope.
When the so-called older generation passes away, we will have this young generation of seminarians and priests who will hopefully become bishops with this attitude. This is the hope.
Matt Fradd: Glory to Jesus Christ, Your Excellency. It has been a pleasure to talk to you today. Thank you for taking the time.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: You are welcome. God bless you and your apostolate.
Matt Fradd: Thank you.
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