Transcript:
Raymond Arroyo:
Bishop Athanasius Schneider is coming up in a moment but first some news. Former Vice President Joe Biden made headlines this week when he was denied Holy Communion at Sunday Mass. The 76-year old Democrat now running for president was attending St. Anthony Catholic Church in Florence, South Carolina. When the pastor, Father Robert Maury refused Biden communion for his public support of abortion. According to Maury, Holy Communion signifies we are one with God, each other and the Church, any public figure who advocates for abortion places himself or herself outside of church teaching, and quote, Biden’s stance on abortion has drifted further left in recent years. Earlier this year, he withdrew his support for the Hyde Amendment that banned federal funding for abortion, and favors punishing doctors who refuse to perform them. Now on to our newsmaker. He’s the auxiliary Bishop of Nur Sultan that is the capital of Kazakhstan, and he’s well known as a defender of Traditional Church teaching. He’s been in the headlines recently for his condemnation of the Pachamama idols at the Amazon Synod. He’s also the subject of a new book length interview with Diane Montagna. It’s called Christus Vincit, Christ’s triumph over the darkness of the age. He joins me now to discuss his thoughts on the Synod, and much more. Please welcome Bishop Athanasius Schneider to the studio. Your Excellency, thank you for being here. We have much to discuss. I want to begin with, in your book, and we’ll get to the I really want to dive into the book. But you spoke about those Pachamama idols. We discussed it with the posse earlier, you wrote a very clear open letter on the subject condemning the presence of these idols in churches, you called them new golden calves. And then you wrote this Catholics cannot accept any pagan worship nor any syncretism between pagan beliefs and the practices and those of the Catholic Church, syncretism and paganism are like poisons entering the veins of the Mystical Body of Christ, the Church, is that what you felt happened in the Vatican gardens in that opening ceremony. And with the reappearance of these idols throughout the Amazon Synod?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider:
I did not feel it was obvious. The entire world could observe this on the video, which even the Vatican news had shown as the people, in the presence of the Pope, in the Vatican gardens, even a Franciscan priest and others, were really dancing. Like the Hebrews danced around the golden calf. They were dancing around these images of the so-called Pachamama, these figures of unclothed pregnant women. Even so, in the beginning, some spokesman of the Vatican news denied that it was Pachamama. But they got the truth out last Friday, when Pope Francis, himself, made a public statement, saying or lamenting that these figures were thrown into the Tiber, and asking forgiveness for this action. He called these figures, “Pachamamas.” So we know then, what this was,
Raymond Arroyo:
yeah. And Bishop; Pachamama, he said, The statues by destroying them in the way that they were destroying it was just they just threw them into the Tiber, they were all recovered. But he said he had to apologize to the indigenous people, firstly, and then he said, No idolatry was intended. What did you take from that?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider:
Yes, we have to see the exterior facts. No one can judge, no one can see the interior intentions. This is only known by God. But we have to judge by exterior behavior. In the same way. You know, in the first centuries of Christianity, the Christians were asked by the pagan authorities of the Roman Empire, only to burn one grain of incense before the symbols or statues of the Roman culture. It was not only the Roman pagan religion, the statues. They were also the statue of the emperor who was a symbol of the Roman culture in some way the indigenous Roman culture of those times. right? And no true Christian could do this. And the Popes, so many Popes refused to burn a grain of incense and saw the action even after the so-called lapsed Christians who did burn publicly incense, in honor of the idols either pagan or cultural, there was one, there was no distinction is always one. There can be no middle term between the only one true God and the idols, we cannot worship our half idol, or a third idol. This is always an idol. And so, in this case, the exterior actions have demonstrated that this is prohibited by divine law.
Raymond Arroyo:
For Paolo Seuss, who was a participant in the Synod, one of the organizers, he said it doesn’t matter. Doesn’t matter if it was a pagan, ritual or not. They were worshiping God.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider:
Yes, this is against divine revelation such a statement. As our Lord said in the First Commandment, you have not to have other gods besides me. So it is very clear. Our Lord also said the same. The apostles, St. Paul said, “How can Christ and the demons of the pagans is that cannot be a union between them?” And so, this, we have to state again, and all the apostles and the Saints through 2000 years. They stated the same that it is impossible to make any compromise in worshiping. Do give worship to what is not God, not the true God.
Raymond Arroyo:
The Vatican editorial director Andrea Tornielli said the following about the theft of these idols, he said in the name of tradition and doctrine and effigy of maternity, and the sacredness of life was dumped in contempt. What do you think St. Athanasius would say?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider:
Yes, I quoted in my open letter, St. Athanasius, from his famous writing against the pagans, “Contra gentiles.” There St. Athanasius condemns these explanations and arguments saying that not only we have to condemn every symbol or idol, which is representing pagan divinity, but then they say we only worship nature, water, sun stars, and even earth. St. Athanasius said, this is the same as worshiping idols. So, this is evident, we cannot worship a creature, Mother Earth as they call it. This is a material creature, Earth. I mean, it’s material. we cannot worship and bow down before our creature.
Raymond Arroyo:
Do you think at this moment this whole Pachamama controversy from the first time it appeared to the theft to its return in front of the Synod Hall? In some ways, did it capture the stakes and the tension of this Amazon Synod in your mind?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider:
Yes, to my opinion, it was a revelation, this worship to these idols which were idols. We cannot deny this, the entire world understood this and is completely dishonest to deny this evidence. It demonstrated in some way, the core of the Synod, which was to turn towards creatures, to turn away from the Creator from the true God. To go to a creature only to put at the center, not only man, but material creature. This is a further step away from the Gospel, from the supernatural, from the true life which God gives us through Jesus Christ.
Raymond Arroyo:
How did we get to this place of this idea of inculturation where you blend in or bring in foreign statues, pagan ideas, and syncretism? How did we get here?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider:
I think we should look back, because there were a lot of statements in the past 50-60 years in the life of the Church, which said that people can freely choose every religion, so you are free to choose any religion and even saying that this is the right of your nature. This is, of course, wrong, because we have only a right from nature to choose the truth and the good. We have not the right and God did not give us the freedom to choose sin, or to choose blasphemy. There are a lot of religions who prefer blasphemy, even blaspheming our Lord Jesus Christ and adoring idols. As for example, Hinduism and other religions, we have to be careful not to spread such teaching and to stress that we have only God who gave us the freedom for the good, for the truth, that is only one truth, and one religion, which got positively once and this is the Catholic religion, the Catholic truth. The religion, which is born from the faith in Jesus Christ, true God and true Man is the only savior of humankind.
Raymond Arroyo:
You spent seven years in Brazil. So if anybody can really speak authoritatively about what the people in the Amazon might want or not. What do you make of the Synod recommendations, particularly, the ordination of married men, married elders, and the study of the extending holy orders to women, making them deacons?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider:
Yes, I met in my time in Brazil, even indigenous, people who are Catholics, and they expressed to me that they were freed when they have known Jesus Christ, and the beauty of the Catholic faith. These indigenous Catholic people, they are very pious, and they loved the priesthood. They had a deep veneration of the sacredness. So, they got the freedom in the true Catholic faith. Now, the Synod seemed to say to them, you can remain in your situation or mix your pagan, indigenous creeds or traditions. With the Catholic faith, this is impossible. So, we are depriving people from this experience because the indigenous Amazonian tribes have the same right as all the other peoples on earth. They are not a special species here on Earth, who alone are not able to give God their sons to be celibaterian priests, as all the people in the entire world during 2000 years of history of the church did so in this way. The Synod previous this proposal considered these Amazonian people as a second class people who are not capable to give God their sons and to mature in faith.
Raymond Arroyo:
Cardinal Hummes, who was one of the chief organizers here, a former Cardinal in Brazil, suggested that this Senate went further than even he imagined and he was particularly excited about the recommendations for women to become lectors and acolytes at the Mass. Are you excited about those?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider:
No, I am not excited because this contradicts the entire tradition of the Church. Unfortunately, after the Council, we had de facto already women lectors and acolytes. So you know, today in the majority of the parishes in the Western world, in Europe and America, even in Asia, there are already female acolytes serving Mass in the same liturgical dress as men. Reading readings during the Holy Mass and even distributing Holy Communion. This is even in some way more than an acolyte only serving Mass, to stand side by side with a priest, a woman and giving Holy Communion. So these practices are already prepared and accustomed to people to accept female lectures, and acolytes, which already we have.
Raymond Arroyo:
I want to talk about your book for a moment, Christus Vincit, and we will talk more about the book next week. First of all, you say you wrote this because we’re living in a dark age in a dark time. Explain that.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider:
That we are living in a dark time, we have not to prove it, it is already too evident. So only a blind person could say we are living in the springtime, or in a new Pentecost, as we heard these words 50-60 years ago during the Council. Now we are living in a cold, spiritual winter in the Church.
Raymond Arroyo:
Why did you decide to write this now and call it Christ’s triumph over the darkness of the age
Bishop Athanasius Schneider:
Below the title in Latin is Christus Vincit. It is a famous and known song of the Catholics. That saying that Christ is the victor, he is the winner, the conqueror. So in this way, I decided to do this interview in a book form to give some strength, consolation and spiritual help to so many people in the first place, to the little ones in the Church, to the Lady, who in these times are thirsting so much for a clarity for the truth.
Raymond Arroyo:
Tell me because I know your first book, I believe was on the Eucharist, particularly about the reception of the Eucharist, the sacrality of the Eucharist, you address it once again in the new book. How is the Eucharist in some ways, perhaps in the only way the way back?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider:
The Eucharist is the heart of the church. The Church is built up from the Eucharist. As John Paul II wrote in his last encyclical, Ecclesia de Eucharistia, saying that the church is built up and lifts from the Eucharist. So the Eucharist is the true heart of the Church. So when the heart is weak, the entire body is weak. So we have first to strengthen the heart of the Church and this is the Eucharist, the veneration of the Eucharist, the worship of the Eucharist. The Eucharist is not only some thing, it is Him, Christ, therefore my first book I gave the title, it is the Lord. It is Him, He.
Raymond Arroyo:
You heard my opening story of former Vice President Joe Biden, who was denied communion last Sunday, at a parish. He presented himself, the priest told him no, not once but twice. That priest is being criticized. Some saying you are politicizing the sacrament. You’re weaponizing the Eucharist. What is your reaction to that decision by the priest?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider:
This is not a convincing argument. This is an argument with which we cannot accept, because here is at stake, the holy of holiest in the Church, our Lord Himself, and if we would admit such a person who publicly supports very grievous sins as the killing of innocent human beings, unborn children and others. He cannot be admitted to Holy Communion because what is holy communion? That is an expression that you are the most united with Christ, with His commandments, and with the entire Church. This would be a lie to admit such a person to Holy Communion, we would commit a lie. So, I consider it very heroic and courageous of this priest who denied this person Holy Communion and he denied him this and he did good because it was for the spiritual good of this person. Because if such a person receives Holy Communion with such an attitude, it is hard for this person. He eats his judgment, as St. Paul says, and therefore, they have to support such a priest.
Raymond Arroyo:
We will leave it there for the moment Bishop Christus Vinci Christ’s triumph over the darkness of the age by Bishop Athanasius Schneider is available at bookstores everywhere online and through EWTN his catalog at EWTNRC.com. We will have more with him next week.
