Raymond Arroyo: He is the auxiliary bishop of Astana, Kazakhstan, and he’s a well-known defender of traditional church teaching. He joins me this evening to share his thoughts on the synodal path, true liturgical reform, and his soon-to-be-released book The Catholic Mass. Please welcome Bishop Athanasia Schneider back to the program. Your Excellency, thank you for being here. I want to start with some important news. I spoke earlier with Edward Penton about the recent developments at the German synodal path. As we mentioned, a dozen statements were being considered, including the blessing of same sex unions and even one that seems to question the need for an ordained priesthood. This week’s plenary session was called off due to a lack of quorum. Too many bishops stuck around to the end of the meeting, making it impossible to conduct business. What do you make of this so-called synodal path, and does this slowdown indicate some resistance?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: A synodal path, or a synod, has the aim to strengthen the faith and to clarify the faith, to defend the faith. This was, ever since the apostles, the aim of a synod to transmit the integrity of faith. Now, what we are witnessing in Germany with the synodal path is the contrary. It is an evident and direct denial of the divine truth in the case of homosexuality and the hierarchical structure of the church, which Christ gave us. So we have to resist this work of destruction of faith.
Raymond Arroyo: The German Bishops have now extended that synodal path to 2023. They say the path and these action items are necessary to reinvigorate the church after the sex abuse crisis, et cetera. Do you believe that capitulating to the world, catching up, if you will, with the times, is the best way for the church to engage the German faithful, or any faithful?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: No. Whenever the church capitulates before the world, it becomes weaker, and we have to be the contrary. We have to acknowledge the evil perpetrated inside the church. Nevertheless, we have to be confident and have the self-assurance that the truth remains. We have to start a renewal of the life of the priest to holiness, the life of faithful new families. This is our task, and we should not be intimidated by the world, by these cases. The church will always remain a church of sinners, but at the same time, a church of saints. We have to continue to proclaim the truth of God and the beauty of a chaste, holy Christian life.
Raymond Arroyo: In your mind, Archbishop, what is needed now, not only in Germany but all over the world, to reinvigorate the church and make her relevant to the Catholics in the pews, which I think is part of the aim here of this synod?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: The most important and basic and urgent thing is to return to Christ, to the truth, to turn to the Lord again, to his revelation, to His truth which we received from the apostles, from the saints, throughout the two millennia in which the church handed over to us the beauty and integrity of the Catholic faith. We have to restate and restate the centrality of God, of his word, the centrality of Christ in the liturgy, to give him absolute priority. Only then will the church have a fruitful spiritual mission and evangelization in this time.
Raymond Arroyo: Archbishop Schneider, when one looks at these synods and they’re going on really for the better part of a year or two, it seems there’s an attempt here to reposition Vatican Two and redefine it, if you will, after the clear definitions articulated by John Paul the Second and Benedict the Sixteenth, who are actual men of the council. Is that what’s happening here? Some have suggested that it may be the case.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, this is an attempt, the synodal ways, to transform the church or the local churches into groups of discussions according to the parliamentary style. This is foreign to the tradition of the church. We do not have to establish the truth or seek it, because we already have the truth received from the apostles, from the church. We have to restate the beauty of the Catholic faith and truth in this time. This should be the task of a council, of an ecumenical council, and of synods. I hope that in this process, the so-called synodal process, in these years, the voices of faithful Catholics who love the faith and the liturgy and the holiness of the church of all ages will also be heard.
Raymond Arroyo: Since we last spoke, Pope Francis released his motu proprio Guardians of the Tradition, placing restrictions on the celebration of the traditional Latin Mass worldwide. What do you make of the rationale for that motu proprio at this moment, and have you observed any abuses that have been alleged to be tied to the old mass?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: In my experience, I have had great experience visiting communities, parishes, and families who are attracted to and love the traditional liturgy. I could not observe what Pope Francis accuses these people of being divisive or fighting against Vatican Two. Nothing of this. Maybe there could be singular cases, as in every community. Therefore, this accusation is an evident pretext, because behind this motu proprio there is another agenda, a decisive rejection of tradition, of what the church prayed in this ancient traditional rite during centuries and millennia, already before the Council of Trent.
The identical rite and order of mass after the Council of Trent brought so many fruits in the life of the saints. Therefore, this traditional rite expressively stresses the centrality of God, eternity, and the sacredness. This kind of mass transmits and proclaims the truth, eternity, and the supernaturality of grace. It may be an obstacle for the agenda now promoted by the Holy See, primarily an agenda of temporal, earthly things. The existence and spread of such a Christocentric rite may be a reproach for high-ranking churchmen who have chosen the earthly, temporal agenda. This could help understand the background of this motor proprioception.
Raymond Arroyo: Speaking of the liturgy, you have a new book coming out in January, The Catholic Mass, Steps to Restore the Centrality of God in the Liturgy. Why did you feel you had to write this book now? It seems prescient in the midst of all this liturgical upheaval and questioning.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, I think we have to be very honest and go to the roots of the crisis, the deepest root of the crisis within the life of the church since the council, which has now reached its culmination. It is precisely that a dead man puts himself in the center and Christ God is put aside. This is the problem. In a special manner, this anthropocentric attitude is manifested daily in the manner of celebrating the Holy Mass, especially in the Novus Ordo, then towards the people celebrated, which is a demonstration of the man-centered style of life and prayer. For me, this is the deepest cause of the current crisis. We have to return and give Christ the precedence, the primacy, and the center in the manner of celebrating liturgy. This will heal the crisis of the church.
Raymond Arroyo: You divide the book into 12 chapters, each explaining what the Catholic Mass is. Mass is prayer, ritual, Thanksgiving, sacrifice, et cetera. These chapters are really a series of interviews, correct? Why did you decide to structure the book this way, and what was the most important aspect of the Mass that you wanted readers to understand?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, we have to understand the meaning, the essence of what the Holy Mass is. From this flows the manner of behavior of the faithful. As the classical philosophical motto says, Agere sequitur esse, the acts flow from the being. We have to show all the richness of the meaning of the Holy Mass. I started with the first topic, the Mass is adoration. This is the first meaning of our being created. This will be our task for all eternity, to adore God with the holy angels in heaven. This was the primary intention and aim of the sacrifice of Christ on the cross: the adoration, veneration, and glorification of the Father of the Holy Trinity. He did this through His sacrifice of love for the Father and for us, redeeming us by this supreme act of adoration and love from our sins. The Holy Mass is inseparably a sacrifice, a redeeming sacrifice of the highest and most sublime adoration of God. We have to stress this. From this flows our salvation and the graces of transformation of our lives and Holy Communion.
Raymond Arroyo: Archbishop Schneider, Benedict the Sixteenth established in Summorum Pontificum that the ordinary form and the extraordinary form are one, right? The Roman rite. How should the two forms coexist in your opinion?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Well, they are quite different. We have to be honest to say the traditional rite and the Novus Ordo. They belong to the great Roman rite, but the Novus Ordo was drastically changed, so it is really different. It is kind of two rites. Pope Francis, in one of his recent interviews, said that priests who now want to celebrate the traditional Mass have to be compared to, or it is a kind of, bi-ritualism. So Pope Francis himself called this bi ritualism. For example, Latin priests can celebrate the Byzantine rite with indulgence of bi ritualism. The Pope also compared the traditional rite form of the Mass and the Novus Ordo. In this case, it is evident there are quite different forms, different rites. In the future, they should become closer and be one rite, maybe with small differences, but substantially the Novus Ordo has to return to the essence of the traditional rite of all times.
Raymond Arroyo: Give me a sense before I let you go. What is your great hope that readers will come away with from your book, The Catholic Mass, when it is published in January? What is the message you want them to take away?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: My hope is that the faithful and priests who read this book will rediscover the spiritual and doctrinal richness of the Mass, which Christ gave us as the greatest gift for his church on Earth. They can discover the beauty and richness of this rite, the Mass itself, and also in the rite how to celebrate, how to behave during Holy Mass, to be united more deeply with Christ and grateful for this unspeakable gift, His holy sacrifice on the cross in the Holy Mass and His body and blood, which nourishes us on our journey to eternity. This is my intention: to strengthen priests and the faithful to discover the beauty of the Holy Mass and bear more fruit in their daily lives.
Raymond Arroyo: Bishop Athanasia Schneider, I thank you for being with me. The Catholic Mass, Steps to Restore the Centrality of God in the Liturgy, is available from Sophia Press. It will be available in January at bookstores everywhere. Bishop, thank you for being here. God bless you.