Transcript:
Raymond Arroyo:
On a recent trip to the Middle East, Pope Francis issued a controversial statement on religious pluralism. Francis says diversity of world religions is willed by God, which appears to contradict 2000 years of church teaching, leading some to suggest he’s engaging in heresy. To discuss this and much more is Bishop Athanasius Schneider. He’s the auxiliary Bishop of Astana, Kazakhstan. Bishop, thank you for being here. Last week, Pope Francis met with women’s superiors from 80 countries at the conclusion of the 21st assembly of the International Union of superior generals in Rome. There he was asked about the possibility of women deacons by a German sister, and he said this, in regard to the diaconate, we must see what was there at the beginning of Revelation. If there is something, let it grow and it arrives. But if there was not if the Lord did not want a sacramental ministry for women, it can’t go forward. For this reason. We go to history and to dogma, we are Catholics. But if anyone wants to find another church, they are free to do so. Your reaction Bishop.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider:
I’m very happy with these words of Pope Francis and they are quite clear that there is no possibility of Sacramental ordination of women. Since the Sacrament of Ordination is one Sacrament, which is in three parts: The first is the diaconate, then the priestly ordination, and then the Episcopal ordination. So it is theologically and dogmatically impossible. So, to confer to them the one part, otherwise, we should give them the second and the third part also.
Raymond Arroyo:
The Pope continued to speak about the development of doctrine in the church, adding that the way we understand our faith today is better than in the pre-Vatican II period. There is development in our understanding, he said. Then he referred to the death penalty, saying, I have clearly stated that the death penalty is unacceptable. It is immoral, 50 years ago, no. Has the Church changed? No. But there has been a development of moral consciousness. Do you think this applies to other teachings in the Catholic Catechism?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider:
First, we have to be clear what does mean development in doctrine in the true sense and the Church always taught that there can be development only under the condition that it remains the same meaning in the same sense as before. So, it could not be evident, both ways are obvious contradictions. This will not be a development, a true development of church doctrine of understanding, for example, as your brought the example of this penalty is to stay now, that this panel is insane, in itself immoral, it contradicts obviously, the entire 2000 teaching of the Church and this is not development, but a contradiction. That can be developed in applying some truth concretely, our example to apply the death penalty can differ, how we do concrete and practical apply the death penalty, but it cannot be different on the principle itself.
Raymond Arroyo:
As I mentioned earlier in February during his trip to Abu Dhabi, Pope Francis together with the grand Imam signed a document on human fraternity for world peace and living together that was the name of the document. In it there was a controversial passage that reads, the pluralism and the diversity of religions, color, sex, race and language are willed by God in His wisdom through which he created human beings. What did you find troublesome in that paragraph? And you did.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider:
If the phrase itself reads, it’s logically and theologically wrong. Diversity of the male and female sexes, as well as the diversity of races is something which in itself is positive and directly willed by God. We read in Holy Scripture, male and female, he made them. And God saw everything, which he had made, and it was really good. So the word of God regarding diversity of religions on the contrary, God explicitly said, that diversity of religions is in itself bad and contradicts His divine wisdom and will. Diversity of religions Moreover, offends God,
Raymond Arroyo:
Your Excellency, I know you brought your concerns about this document and this statement to the Holy Father himself. At a March meeting, he said that you could go forward and clarify the difference between the will of God and the permissive will of God and that that would clear things up now since that meeting, the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue have asked Catholic university professors to distribute this statement. Now, the phrase in question was not formally corrected, the document was sent out to universities, do you believe there needs to be a public correction?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider:
There is a very much needed public correction because as the phrase reads in itself, it is ambiguous, not only ambiguous it is wrong, it is logically wrong to state in the same breath, the diversity of male and female sexes and the diversity of religions. It is impossible to express without an official correction.
Raymond Arroyo:
Your Excellency, this statement on religious diversity and the teaching in Amoris Laetitia that allows Communion to divorced and remarried Catholics without an annulment have been cited as evidence that the Pope has committed heresy in a new open letter. Now, this was signed by scholars and theologians. Do you believe that this really rises to the level of heresy?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider:
No, because a heresy is a formal statement, which denies informal speech a revealed truth. And so the Pope did not deny publicly and explicitly the indissolubility of marriage. So, therefore, he cannot be accused of heresy in this concrete term. But he with his permission and approval of the norms of the Argentine bishops, which in some cases, allow the access of people living in adultery, to Holy Communion, this approval of the Pope, in practice, is denying the truth not by words, but also only specifically for a region, he did not approve a general norm for the entire Church. So we have to distinguish these levels.
Raymond Arroyo:
So is this letter an appropriate instrument to correct a pope? Did they go too far calling for the Pope’s resignation in that open letter?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider:
Yes, I think they went too far. Because in my opinion, they cannot themselves state this is a heresy. The authors of the letter cannot by themselves state that these are heresy because of the items which were mentioned in the list and also they were not formally written. There was no formal declaration of heresy of Pope Francis. There were a lot of ambiguities. I would say, more ambiguities and practical collaboration in the spreading of wrong teachings in the Church. And so this is a fact and therefore they have to be very careful in accusing the Pope of formal heresy.
Raymond Arroyo:
Final question, Bishop? Before I let you go, we’re running out of time. This Amazon conference is coming up in October. Now you spent some time in this part of the world. The argument here is that given the priest shortage in the region, the only thing the only relief for this is to bring married men into the priesthood to make up for the shortage. Is that a legitimate solution in your mind?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider:
No, it is a deceit. It is a pure practical human solution. I would even say a worldly solution, because I myself lived in the Soviet time. In those times, we had no priests for decades but we lived our Catholic faith in the domestic church. Sometimes a priest will come and give us the Sacraments maybe once a year. In even so the Church, the underground Church, in Soviet times, and in other times of Church history, when there was a shortage of priests, they kept the faith strong and they transmitted the faith. They already have a clear proof and demonstration from the history of the Church, that God provides with His graces even people who are longing for a priest, and therefore the solution is to strengthen the families, the domestic Church, and then to pray for holy priestly vocations.
Raymond Arroyo:
Bishop Athanasius Schneider, I thank you so much for your time this evening. We’ll get together again and we’ll get a clear connection next time I promise.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider:
God bless you
