In a time when spiritual discipline is often overshadowed by digital distractions and worldly pressures, Bishop Athanasius Schneider reminds us of the power of returning to sacred tradition. On a recent episode of Breakfast with Bacon, Dr. Christine Bacon welcomes His Excellency to discuss his upcoming book, Matins with the Fathers, a spiritual aid for both clergy and laity rooted in the ancient wisdom of the Desert Fathers and Church tradition.
This conversation is more than a book launch, it’s a profound call to reclaim daily prayer, deepen our love for Scripture, and rediscover the role of the Church Fathers in our modern faith journey. Whether you’re a cradle Catholic, a new convert, or simply seeking to enrich your spiritual life, this dialogue will inspire you to put down the phone, pick up the breviary, or at least a Bible, and start your day with the saints who lived closest to the Apostles themselves.
Watch the full conversation below and read the full transcript for insight, encouragement, and a fresh call to holiness.
Transcript:
Dr. Christine Bacon: Good morning, Breakfast with Bacon fans. It is my great honor to have again on my show Bishop Athanasius Schneider, His Excellency. And for those of you who follow me, and Your Excellency, I’m not trying to give you any pride, but for those of us who follow my show, I know that we esteem this bishop highly because he is a true fighter for the Church. He wants us to stick with the truth of the Magisterium and what the Lord passed on.
So today, I have the privilege of having him on to talk about his newest book, which is coming out soon, on August 19, which really will help you and me to get even closer to our Lord through daily readings. I’ll let you know more in a minute.
But for those of you who don’t know who Bishop Athanasius Schneider is: he is a Catholic prelate, obviously, serving as the auxiliary bishop in Astana, Kazakhstan, which means it’s really late where he is right now. He’s a member of the Canons Regular of the Holy Cross of Coimbra.
Your Excellency, I know that’s a long introduction, but thank you so much for making the time at such a late hour, for coming onto my show.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Thank you for your invitation. No problem. I am at your disposal.
Dr. Christine Bacon: Oh, you know, I want to tell you this, Your Excellency. I went to Uganda about a month ago, and I have a priest there that I support, and he calls me his mother, so I call him my son. I don’t have any sons.
Before I left, he gave me his breviary, and it was such an honor for me, because a holy priest had prayed through this. Now, he has two of them, and so he asked me to join the Church in praying daily the readings of the Church. So it’s been my great honor.
So when I found out that you had written this book, it really fell in line, because the book that you’ve written now is called, again, putting this up for those of you, the book that’s coming out August 19: Matins with the Fathers. And these are about the Desert Fathers, patristic commentaries for the Office of Matins.
So I don’t mess it up, can you tell us what the Matins are and what it has to do with the breviary of the Church?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Well, Matins is the name of an hour in the breviary as it is used in the traditional rite. Ever since the Reform after Vatican II, this hour of the breviary was changed, but it is still called Matins for those who use the old breviary. It was one of the most important liturgical hours in the breviary, together with Vespers.
It was a morning, or better, a night prayer. The monks, since the beginning of the Church (and even St. Paul with Silas), prayed at night, at midnight, with psalms to God. And this is the origin: this liturgical hour was prayed in the night. In Latin, matutinum means early or morning, and from that came the name Matins, hora matutina in Latin. So that’s the derivation of the name.
It was an important part of the day to praise God in the night not only in the day very early in the night, or usually when the sun was slowly rising, depending on the climate and season. Usually, the monks prayed after midnight. Still today, the Carthusian monks and others who follow a stricter discipline pray Matins in the night, at least after midnight.
It was a very important hour. It was the longest hour, because in the night, the monks had to spend more time sanctifying the hours of the night or early morning, really. To give to the Lord the first fruits of the day in the night was a kind of meeting: the night is still there, but it’s slowly finishing, and the day is coming. So this offering of the sacrifice of the lips through the psalms was central.
Therefore, this liturgical hour, Matins, was the longest one in the traditional breviary. In the Benedictine tradition, it had 12 psalms. Later, for the diocesan clergy in the old breviary, there were nine psalms every day in Matins. Another characteristic of this liturgical hour was the readings of Holy Scripture more extensive readings.
In daily weekday Matins, there were only readings from Holy Scripture three readings not so long, but at least three parts. Then, on feasts and Sundays, in addition to the biblical readings, there were corresponding commentaries from the Fathers of the Church patristic commentaries. Yes, so this is the structure of traditional Matins.
In the new breviary, it’s no longer called Matins, but the “Office of Readings” or “Hour of Readings.” It is very abbreviated. There is one biblical reading and a commentary from the Fathers.
Why did I write this small book? I wrote it for those priests and laypeople who use the old breviary. Because in the daily weekday Matins, there are only biblical readings no patristic commentaries. And I felt this was a lack, because it is so helpful when you are reading a passage from the Bible to better understand and deepen it with the help of corresponding explanations from the Holy Fathers of the Church.
It is very helpful to read a passage of Holy Scripture and then suddenly read a commentary on what you just read. So, I decided after doing long research in the patristic writings of the Fathers to find, I hope, fitting and corresponding short commentaries. Not too long, not too overburdened.
Of course, it’s not part of the breviary, but it is a simple supplementary help for private meditation and private reading.
Dr. Christine Bacon: That is such a great explanation, because you just answered approximately three of my questions! So, I think the three things you have me thinking about are: first, that contemplative prayer time is not something people of this generation are used to doing, and I think it’s something we need to get back into. And you know, as I mentioned earlier, this has helped me so much. There’s also this feeling I get, knowing that I’m praying with the other priests of the world.
But this idea, Bishop, that you include the Church Fathers, is also very important. And forgive me, I’m 60 years old, I’m a cradle Catholic, I went to Catholic school, but up until about five years ago, I never knew who the Church Fathers were. A friend of mine had to explain to me who they are and why they’re so important.
So, that is a very key element: adding their specific writings. But for the other Catholics, or non-Catholics, out there who are like me and don’t really understand: who are the Church Fathers? Could you tell us a little bit about who they are and why they’re important to us?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Well, the Church Fathers are given that name because the Church recognizes them as privileged witnesses of the Tradition, the sources of our faith. The source of Divine Revelation, by which God revealed His divine truth to us, comes in two forms. One is the written source, which is the Bible, Holy Scripture. The other is the unwritten, which is the oral Holy Tradition.
Both are the Word of God. We are often accustomed, when we hear “the Word of God,” to think only of the written one. But that is not entirely correct. The Word of God includes both the written and the oral tradition. The Word of God transmitted orally is also truly the Word of God. It is a means by which God revealed Himself through oral tradition.
The Council of Trent, and later the Second Vatican Council, both repeated this truth: that the written Word of God and the oral, transmitted or handed-down Word of God must be revered and esteemed with equal honor.
Dr. Christine Bacon: And, sorry, go ahead! I thought you were finished.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: It is a principle of the Catholic faith that we must again and again stress. The Church Fathers are the privileged witnesses to the transmission of the oral Word of God. Not the exclusive ones, but the privileged ones. Why? Let me explain.
The Church Fathers are a specific category of saints, and to be given the title “Father of the Church,” a person must simultaneously fulfill the following requirements:
First, antiquity. They must have lived within the first centuries of the Church. For the Latin Fathers, the typical cut-off is the 7th century. The last Latin Church Father is usually considered to be Saint Isidore of Seville from Spain, who died in 636. For the Greek or Oriental Fathers, the limit is typically one century later. So, Saint John of Damascus, who died around the middle of the 8th century, around 750, is considered the last of the Greek Church Fathers. Even if someone is a saint or a doctor of the Church, if they lived after these time limits, they are not called Church Fathers.
Second, they must be canonized by the Church. That is, they must have lived a saintly life, officially recognized by the Church. This is why we say Saint Augustine or Saint John Chrysostom, for example.
Third, their teaching must correspond to the teaching of the Church. It must not contain doctrinal error. There may be minor, personal errors in certain writings, due to ignorance or a lack of attention, but in general, their teachings must not contradict the Tradition of the Church.
Fourth, they must be at least implicitly recognized by the Church’s Magisterium. This is usually done through quotations in official documents, such as when a pope or an ecumenical council cites their writings. This is a sign of the Church’s recognition of its authority. These are the basic criteria for being called a Church Father, or a Father of the Church, or a patristic author. Now, if an early Christian writer lacks even one of these four conditions, they are not called a Church Father. Instead, they are referred to as ecclesiastical writers or authors from antiquity. For example, Tertullian and Origen, while important and influential, are not considered Church Fathers because they do not meet all the required conditions.
Dr. Christine Bacon: Do you have a favorite?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Well, I mean Saint Augustine, because I’m a religious of the Canons of Saint Augustine and follow the Rule of Saint Augustine. And, of course, Saint Athanasius, who is my patron, was both were eminent Church Fathers and of course, there are many other beautiful texts. Saint John Chrysostom and Saint Gregory the Great. I love him very much as well.
Dr. Christine Bacon: So you have a lot of favorites.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, really, we can say that these Church Fathers were truly illuminated by the Holy Spirit. This came through the cleanliness and purity of their souls, and their deep love for the Holy Scripture. They lived the Holy Scripture profoundly. They were penetrated, imbued, with the Word of God. And therefore, they are the most apt commentators and interpreters of the Holy Scripture. No one could be more fitting, because they were so close to the origin, to the apostles.
Dr. Christine Bacon: To the apostles, right? And that was before too much time had passed for things to be misinterpreted or for language to change, you know. So I appreciate that about them. I think of someone like Saint Augustine, who, if I had to guess, is probably the one more people connect with, because of his very flesh-driven life before the Lord really got a hold of him. And then what the Lord did afterward, that just tied his whole life together. I think so many of us can relate to that. And to hear the wise things he wrote, there have been so many quotes from him that people repeat. I think I hear him quoted more than any of the other Church Fathers.
“My heart is restless until it rests in You.”
And, “Oh, how late have I loved Thee.”
Those are things that I think someone living in the 21st century can really connect with.
And then, Saint John Chrysostom, I’m a public speaker, and the fact that his words were so eloquent that he was called the “Golden-Mouthed” or “Golden-Tongued”, it’s wonderful to think that God gave him the gift of being able to interpret Scripture in a way that our ears could hear and understand.
So, I thank you for bringing these Church Fathers into your book, because I think it’s going to cover so many areas. It’s going to give us the daily readings that we wouldn’t have had otherwise.
And then, we’re going to receive the richness from these men, many of whom, I think, a lot of people may not have read before. You know what I mean? We’ve read Augustine, we’ve read a couple of others, but there are probably a lot of them we haven’t. And you’ve brought them back to us through these daily readings.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, that was also my intention, to make the treasure of the Fathers of the Church more widely known, specifically their biblical commentaries.
The goal is that we might better know, better understand, and better love the Word of God, the Holy Scripture. Of course, I could write a book specifically focused on other themes. For example, the truth of the Holy Trinity, as explained by the Church Fathers, could be a book on its own. Or a book on how the Fathers viewed Our Lady, the Blessed Virgin, or the Eucharist.
There could be several books like that, and it would be very helpful to publish such works in order to make the Church Fathers more widely known. But for this book, I chose to limit myself to Holy Scripture, so that we can grow in our knowledge of it. At the same time, when readers go through these commentaries, they will notice that even while interpreting specific passages of the Bible, the Church Fathers often also transmitted and expressed very important dogmatic and moral truths.
So, this book will help deepen not only our understanding of particular Scripture passages, but also our understanding of the faith, both doctrinal and moral
Dr. Christine Bacon: Something that comes to mind, I have two questions. But the first one is this: we have a lot of good and holy Protestant brothers and sisters, and they love the Lord, but they’re not yet Catholic. I find that when I ask them questions like, “Where do you get your understanding from?”, it usually stops at their preacher, or maybe their bishop, or someone who has been alive recently. And my question to them is always, “But who gave them authority? And where does that authority go back to?” Because when we try to trace their spiritual family tree, it usually stops long before the Church Fathers.
So, for me, and you can correct me or help me understand this differently, for me, the Church Fathers are the tie-in between Christ and where we are today. These were the men who lived close to the time of Christ, as you said, and who were able to pass on the oral Tradition.
We cannot forget what they said about these subjects. So don’t stop with your preacher, go back to the Church Fathers. They are the bridge between Christ and the Church today. Am I making sense? That seems to be a great value in choosing the Church Fathers, to keep looking through them and listening to them. Is that making sense?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Exactly, you are right. And within the category of the Church Fathers, there is a first group called the Apostolic Fathers. These are the ones who still lived during the time of the apostles and who personally knew them. So, they are truly the living bridge to the subsequent generations.
And of course, as you rightly noticed, the entire patristic era, the full span of the Church Fathers, from the first to the seventh centuries, is a living bridge to our time. They connect us to those who came just after Christ and the apostles, and therefore serve as a living, historical, and theological continuity. For example, when we examine the Apostolic Fathers, we find Saint Clement of Rome, who was a disciple of Saints Paul and Peter, and one of the first popes. We have his writings. Then there’s Saint Ignatius of Antioch, the great martyr and bishop, who was made a bishop in the first century during the lifetime of Saint John the Apostle. We also have Saint Polycarp of Smyrna, who was a direct disciple of Saint John the Apostle himself. So, these Apostolic Fathers are truly the living bridge to the apostles. And when we carefully examine the writings of the Apostolic Fathers, we find that almost the entire core of Catholic doctrine is already present, in the first and early second centuries.
In fact, when Protestant scholars began to seriously study the Apostolic Fathers, they had to acknowledge: “Oh, but this is Catholic.” And so, they began to refer to it as proto-Catholicism.
Not in an affirmative way, but rather in a critical way, saying, “Oh, these so-called Apostolic Fathers already went wrong. They abandoned the pure Gospel and introduced something new.” But this is a completely arbitrary accusation.
Dr. Christine Bacon: It’s silly. It really is, because of exactly what you just said. They were alive!
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: It’s an ideological accusation that they somehow abandoned the purity of the doctrine, when in fact, they were disciples of the apostles. This kind of accusation is simply a refusal of the will, a refusal to accept the truth, and to become Catholic. And so, they invent such categories or accusations to justify that refusal. You see, the Church Fathers are truly breathing the Spirit of Jesus Christ, of the Gospel, of the apostles, and of the Church of all ages.
Dr. Christine Bacon: Yeah, it’s arrogant, too, Your Excellency, for us to think, “Well, I know the truth in 2025,” and yet believe that someone who lived 1,000 years before us somehow got it wrong. There’s an arrogance there that I think we need to get past. That’s why the Church Fathers, ever since my friend told me about them five years ago and really helped me understand their importance, have made such a difference in my life.
This is why they are relevant. This is why we need to study them. Now, I’m going to ask you a much simpler question, and don’t laugh at me for the simplicity of my questions, because this one is really meaningful to me. What is the importance of biblical readings in our lives?
Before you answer that, I just want to give a little background. I was reading the Bible every single day. I’ve read it through three or four times, I can’t even remember exactly, and I loved waking up every morning, reading the Bible, and having that meditation time. Then, when COVID came, I found a Latin church nearby that remained open, and I started going there. Praise God, I was able to begin attending daily Mass. So now, I wake up and go to Mass at 6 a.m. every day. But I’m a working woman, a grandmother, and a wife, and I’ve found that, in doing that, I’ve exchanged reading the Bible daily for going to Mass daily. I know that going to Mass is the most important thing, but I’ve been feeling, not exactly empty, but like something is missing, because I’m no longer spending that time in the Word each day. So I’m trying to bring that back into my life now.
That’s my personal context. So with that in mind, what is the importance of trying to find time to get biblical readings back into our lives, even if we’ve already read the Bible three, four, five times, or more? I hope that doesn’t sound like a silly question.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: It’s not a silly question. It’s a good question, really, a very practical question. Well, it depends on the professional and familial situation of each person. Of course, the Holy Mass daily is of inestimable value. You cannot compare it to anything else. It is the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. You are standing spiritually on Golgotha. Nothing here on Earth can be compared with this, nothing. You are receiving the graces of the Lord and receiving Him when you go to Holy Communion. This is completely incomparable to reading in your house.
Because in the text of Holy Scripture, Christ is living, but God is not really present in the book or the paper. But there, on the altar, is the living Christ, the suffering Christ, living and also glorified. So this is the first. But of course, we also have to read daily, at least a little bit from Holy Scripture, because it is the word of God, which also nourishes our spirit and our soul with truth.
If people have to choose, “Oh, should I go to Mass or read Holy Scripture?” of course, go to Mass. But you can unite these, because in every Holy Mass, there are two Scripture readings: the first reading and the Gospel. Take the missal and follow carefully, reading what the priest or the lector is reading. So, every day you have a reading and then the Gospel. In every Mass, there is both a reading and a Gospel. When you follow carefully, really pondering, take the text with your eyes. It helps more than just listening. Take the text from the Daily Mass. You can have a small missal and follow it.
Then, when you still have time during the day, depending on your obligations, you can dedicate at least five minutes to reading a small passage from the Gospel or from Holy Scripture, in any order. It is your choice. Or you can take my book, which will be published. Yes, this is what I was going to say. A small, short reading of Holy Scripture, and then an explanation from God through the Church Fathers. I think with these short readings, probably ten minutes, you can find time.
Dr. Christine Bacon: Put down a cell phone.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Besides the Holy Mass daily, I think a person can also find ten minutes to read a small passage of Scripture and a small commentary. I think it is possible.
Dr. Christine Bacon: Thank you. And I am very excited about that situation.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Because there are situations where people are traveling or sick and so on, or very busy, but in the usual situation, I think it is possible.
Dr. Christine Bacon: Thank you, and I think that is going to be very helpful again. I feel silly holding up this piece of paper, but your book does not come out for two more weeks. I think everyone watching, if you do, if you are like me and you want to get deeper into the scripture readings, if you have read the Bible before, or even if you feel like you need more matins with the fathers, the patristic commentaries for the office of matins. I know everybody cannot have a breviary. I am privileged to have that here, but this will help us, in this day and age, to get closer to the Lord. And I think we are being attacked more than ever before.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: I want to add practical reasons, please. Even people who do not have the old breviary, because it refers to the old breviary. There, I always indicate the corresponding scripture part you see in this book. I indicate, for example, Isaiah, first chapter, verses one to ten, and then comes the commentary of the church father. So you can simply take the Bible and open this passage, which is indicated. Read the passage, and then the commentary from the book. So I did not print the biblical text in this, not to… to keep it small. Because you can take the Bible from your phone and look up the corresponding scripture passage, usually, it is a smaller passage from the Bible that is read in matins. It is not a long text, really not a long text.
Dr. Christine Bacon: It is not. I am going to ask you a personal question. You have been a priest for many decades already, haven’t you? How did writing this enrich your vocation?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Of course, after Holy Mass, the breviary is the most important prayer for a priest and even for me personally, because there are no more beautiful prayers than the Psalms. They are inspired by the Holy Spirit. Every day you can pray them, and so it deepens your love of the word.
Then you are reading scripture texts in the breviary and also the commentaries of the Fathers of the Church. When you pray attentively with the breviary, it increases your faith, simply the Catholic faith, and then the love for the Word of God, the love for the entire Catholic Church, and basically the love to pray and spend time with God.
This is the meaning of the breviary for priests. They have to give time to God during the day because they celebrate Mass, and they have many pastoral tasks, sacraments, and so on. But it is necessary that they dedicate time exclusively to God. Usually, when there is no obligation, even good people forget it. They are going, driving, doing activities, and even doing good works.
The Church commands that it is a grave obligation for deacons, priests, and religious to pray the breviary, depending on which rule they follow. But at least they must dedicate time to the Lord. The new breviary is shorter. It takes basically half an hour, besides Mass and other obligations. It is not much time for a priest.
Usually, priests and religious people today spend half an hour or an hour on the internet, so the laity could spend this time really carefully reading or praying the Divine Office. It must be taken more seriously, I think, to dedicate time to the Lord.
We have twenty-four hours that God gave us. Well, we must sleep, let us say, a maximum or rest eight hours. Then we must work, let us say, eight hours. Then we still have eight hours left over.
Well, tools to eat and so on. And then to spend time with God for twenty-four hours, how much? Of course, the priest celebrates Mass for an hour or forty-five minutes. Then he has some duties. But I think he still has to give God one hour of prayer, in some way, at least two hours daily. Most priests dedicate this time to God for twenty-four hours.
Therefore, the old breviary was longer, simply to, in some way, keep the priest engaged at fixed times. He could choose freely some of the hours, but the meaning is to dedicate time to God, to give Him time. So this is very important.
Dr. Christine Bacon: Yes, and for all of us laity, it is important. I usually end by asking you a question, but instead, I really feel compelled to ask you to pray for me and my viewers, that we can do just that, that we can come out of our internet and cellphone slumber and receive the graces to start putting our noses back in the Bible and back into these biblical readings. Would you mind praying for my viewers and me to do that?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, let us pray together to conclude, to glorify the Lord, and that He increases in us the love for Him. When we love God, we love prayer, and when we love prayer, we love eternity and eternal life. May we also be deeply rooted in the life of love for God and our neighbor.
In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, amen.
Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. Amen.
May the Almighty God bless you, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen.
Praise be Jesus Christ.
Dr. Christine Bacon: Amen, Your Excellency. Thank you. For those of you who want to get your hands on this wonderful book, I cannot wait until August 19, but you can pre-order today. Go to SophiaInstitute.org, I think it is .org, I have the link in the show notes. You can click on it right there.
Bishop Athanasia Schneider has written several books. There is a link in the show notes to those. Please take advantage of the wisdom of one of these holy men of Jesus. If you would like to share this show with a friend, I think it would really help to inspire their prayer life as well.
Like it, subscribe, and share with a friend. Go to my website, drchristinebacon.com, and look at some of the other amazing guests that the Lord has brought into my life and this show to help get more souls to heaven. That is my goal, I want to get more souls to heaven.
I think that is about it. Follow me on all the social media as well. I did forget to ask you, Your Excellency, are you on social media? Do you have an account on Instagram? Because I know the Pope does, so I thought maybe you did.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: I have a website, which some people are managing for me, gloriadei.io. They offer it in the show notes as well. There are some of my articles and videos also available.
Dr. Christine Bacon: Excellent. All right, so you can get a hold of Bishop Schneider as well. Probably not by direct phone call, but go to his website. There is a link in the show notes.
I do not want to keep him because it is past his bedtime. So I want to say I am Dr. Christine Bacon. You have been watching Breakfast with Bacon, and I would like to remind you always to live your life sunny side up.