Transcript:
John-Henry Westen: Welcome to this episode of the John-Henry Westen Show, where we’re speaking with one of the holiest, most courageous, and outspoken bishops in the world. His name is Athanasius Schneider. He is the auxiliary bishop of Astana in Kazakhstan, and we’ll be speaking to him about the coronavirus, the deprivation of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass for the faithful, whether priests should obey their bishops’ orders to deny the sacraments to the faithful, and whether Bishop Schneider sees this pandemic as a chastisement from God connected to the warnings of Our Lady of Fatima in 1917. You’re going to want to stay tuned.
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We’ll begin with a short prayer from Bishop Schneider. Your Excellency, if you would please.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen.
Pater noster, qui es in cælis, sanctificetur nomen tuum. Adveniat regnum tuum. Fiat voluntas tua, sicut in cælo, et in terra. Panem nostrum quotidianum da nobis hodie, et dimitte nobis debita nostra, sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris. Et ne nos inducas in tentationem, sed libera nos a malo. Amen.
Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum. Benedicta tu in mulieribus, et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Iesus. Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc et in hora mortis nostræ. Amen.
Gloria Patri, et Filio, et Spiritui Sancto. Sicut erat in principio, et nunc, et semper, et in sæcula sæculorum. Amen.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen.
John-Henry Westen: Amen. Thank you, Bishop Schneider. Let me first say thank you on behalf of the many Catholics around the world who are hungry for spiritual leadership. Although you are an auxiliary bishop in Astana, Kazakhstan, they have in you the great gift of spiritual leadership from afar. Your recent book, Christus Vincit, which you were interviewed for by former LifeSite correspondent Diane Montagna, is outstanding, and people have marveled at it. We will talk about that too, but I wanted to first get your impression of what is happening right now with the coronavirus crisis, which has left Catholics around the world stunned, having been deprived of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, even throughout Easter.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: The situation with the coronavirus is, in history, at such an extent, because it was for the first time since the persecution of the Christians in the first centuries in the Roman pagan empire, that almost all over the world, public worship was stopped, especially on Easter. It is very significant, and in my opinion, it has a deep spiritual meaning.
When we observe this phenomenon, it could be an appeal of God, an intervention. In my opinion, it is a divine intervention, not only for the world to awaken people, but also for the Church. For me, it is first for the Church to awaken, to be more serious.
In these moments, when almost all Catholics all over the world are deprived of Holy Mass and the sacraments, it is a divine appeal to the priests, to the bishops, to the Pope, to reflect, to repent, to ask forgiveness from God for all the sins committed in the last decades inside the Church, especially those sins which were committed in connection with the sacraments, especially the Holy Mass, the Eucharist, Holy Communion.
Now almost all are deprived of Holy Communion, and so maybe God says, “You have outraged Me, you have trampled Me underfoot for 50 years in the churches, and now it has been taken away for a moment.” Of course, this is something God has done at times in the history of salvation to admonish His people, His children.
So it is a judgment of God, a punishment, but a punishment from a loving Father who wants to awaken His children, who wants His children to come closer to Him through these extraordinary signs, to repent, and also to have a deeper esteem for the sacraments, especially for the Holy Mass. This is, for me, a first observation of this sad situation caused by the so-called coronavirus epidemic.
John-Henry Westen: This is a difficult concept, I’d say, because if it is a chastisement a warning from the Lord, as you said, a loving warning then if there is no repentance, which there doesn’t really seem to be at this point, particularly in the areas that you mentioned regarding the Church, because of the mistreatment of Our Lord in the Holy Eucharist the reception of Holy Communion in the hand, which leads to the trampling upon Jesus in the various particles left over on people’s hands and therefore brushed onto the floor, as you were mentioning then if it is a chastisement or a loving warning from the Lord, will it end if there’s no repentance? And it surely doesn’t seem like repentance is happening.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, I agree with you. Even Our Lord speaks in the Gospel to His people, saying that you have not recognized the visitation of God. When He spoke to Jerusalem, He was weeping and saying, “You will be destroyed by your enemies because you have not recognized the signs which God gave you.” This is a free translation of what Our Lord said, but that is the meaning.
So now is the chance for the Church, for the Pope, for the bishops, for the faithful, to make acts of repentance, of expiation, reparation, public reparation for all the sins, firstly those committed against Our Lord in the Most Blessed Sacrament.
Then, I would say, also against the commandments, especially the first commandment: “You shall not have other gods.” All these sins were committed in the Church against the first commandment. For example, recently, we have seen events in the last year.
The bishops and priests can start with acts of reparation, why not individually, then in families, and hopefully, when this lockdown is ended, also publicly in churches with processions. But I think we must ask the Holy Father to pray that God may illuminate him, that he himself will give an example by making acts of reparation together with the cardinals publicly first for the sins and for the mistreatment and outrage against Our Lord in the Eucharist committed inside the Church.
And then also for other sins. The Pope, the bishops, and the priests must make public acts of reparation for the extreme crime, the extremely great crime of our age, which is the most horrible crime: abortion, the killing of innocent children in the wombs of their mothers. These we have to do also as acts of public reparation, and also for the sins against the sixth commandment, specifically the sins against holy matrimony, marriage. These are only, for example, concrete acts. We have to do this.
John-Henry Westen: Absolutely. One of the things that’s most shocking or upsetting for Catholics is that the Pope has indeed spoken about the coronavirus, but he did not speak of it as a chastisement from God. Instead, he referred to it as a response of the earth. In fact, he has said something like this now four times. Most recently, on Earth Day, April 22, he spoke of the virus as the earth’s response to our failure to care for the environment, a kind of revenge or punishment from the earth for not addressing climate change.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Well, when the Pope said this, he did not speak ex cathedra as an infallible judgment. This concerns the climate and the earth’s temporal realities. So in this, he shows that the Pope can commit errors. And this is legitimate, we can say, with respect, “Most Holy Father, we believe this is an error,” and present our arguments.
We must look at all the events, especially very important and grievous events in history, as we are now experiencing, also from a supernatural view. The Pope must first have a supernatural perspective, as our Lord Jesus Christ always had, as the apostles, the great saints, and the prophets had.
At least we have one thing in common: the Pope speaks of punishment or chastisement, but in another way from the earth, maybe. I do not agree with this interpretation. The true meaning of chastisement and punishment from God is that it is a warning from a loving Father calling His children to repentance. For someone who sees and understands events from a supernatural point of view, this should be very clear and evident.
John-Henry Westen: One of the great hardships now is that people are deprived of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. What has been happening all over the world is that priests have been forbidden by their bishops even to offer private Masses for their parishioners. There are all sorts of ways to celebrate Mass safely, according to regulations similar to those used in grocery stores, such as people staying six feet apart, wearing masks. This could easily be done in churches, but it is being forbidden in most places. Now, you’ve said in a previous interview that such demands from bishops are not legitimate and that priests can ignore them. Please explain that.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, this is an obvious abuse of authority, an abuse of power. God never gave a bishop the authority or power to forbid the celebration of Mass. Of course, we must observe all necessary health safety measures and protections that are obvious. But he cannot forbid the celebration of Mass altogether. That is an abuse of power.
In times of plague and epidemic in the Middle Ages, even in the 16th century, Saint Charles Borromeo in Milan obliged priests to celebrate Mass and to ask God, through the Mass, for forgiveness for the sins committed. He considered the plague a chastisement, a warning from God.
So, he asked the priests to celebrate Mass. Even though he closed large churches for a time to protect people from the contagion, which was far more dangerous than the coronavirus, he ordered that Masses be celebrated in public squares, on the streets, on street corners, to multiply Masses so that people could participate from their open windows and doors.
At that time, the mortality rate from the plague reached up to 90 percent. That is incomparable with the coronavirus. And still, Saint Charles Borromeo, Cardinal Borromeo, ordered the priests to celebrate public Masses. So, there is no real comparison.
Therefore, if a bishop forbids priests from even celebrating private Masses or from giving the sacraments to dying or sick persons, the priest must not obey the bishop. We must obey God first. In such cases, the bishop is committing a grievous sin by abusing his power.
So in this case, we have many priests wondering what they can do. Their bishops are permitting them to celebrate private Masses, but only alone, without any of the faithful present. Not only that, but they are also not allowed to go to the homes of parishioners to offer private Masses there, nor, in most cases, to have outdoor Masses with the public at safe distances.
John-Henry Westen: So I want to be clear. When we are talking about orders from bishops like that, can they be disregarded by a priest?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Well, it depends on the place and on the laws of the government or the civil authorities. If the civil authorities permit it, I don’t know, it depends on different countries, you have to check this, but if, for example, it is not forbidden to visit a family, why not celebrate Mass there if it is not prohibited by the government?
So the bishop should, on the contrary, be happy that priests are being creative and showing zeal for the faithful, trying to find creative solutions in some way, without contradicting or infringing on the laws of the state.
John-Henry Westen: This is one of the areas that has become very difficult, because in many places, the laws have followed what the bishops have done or not done. Grocery stores, beer stores, and liquor stores are open because they are deemed essential services. Yet, it appears that the bishops have not insisted to the government that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is an essential service. People are allowed to go to the grocery store but not allowed to go to Mass, even though, particularly at daily Masses, there are often far fewer people present than in a grocery store.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, in some cases, this was a grievous omission on the part of some bishops. The bishops, the bishops’ conferences, and even the Holy See should have insisted to the governments that churches be given at least the same rights and opportunities as stores or other places where people go to buy food.
If people can go to stores and buy something, then in the same way, they should be able to go to church, while observing the same health protection measures. That should have been the method of the bishops and the Holy See to insist on this.
Otherwise, if the government denies the Church the same rights as it gives to stores, then this is discrimination against religion. Evidently, it is a kind of implicit persecution of the Church. This is what we are witnessing; it is being carried out under the pretext of the coronavirus epidemic. Many governments are now conducting an implicit persecution of Christians and of the Church.
John-Henry Westen: Just a couple of days ago, there was an announcement from England that extreme social distancing would be extended until after Christmas. That would mean a year or more without the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: It is evident that such measures are completely unreasonable and lack proportionality. The coronavirus epidemic does not have such a high mortality rate. With good health protection measures, worship in churches can happen.
Now in Germany and Austria, for example, next month in May, they will slowly reopen churches and allow public worship. In Berlin, from the beginning of May, they will allow public worship for up to 50 people. In other places, 15. At least this is a proportional and balanced approach.
The measures announced in Great Britain, by contrast, are completely out of proportion. They reveal a kind of discrimination and persecution of the Church. So, it could be that we are entering a time of the catacombs again, a kind of underground Church.
But we should not be fearful. We must be courageous. The Church has a long and rich experience of being a catacomb Church, an underground Church. In those times, God brought about many spiritual fruits and a renewal of the Church.
Maybe this is a visitation of the Church, an intervention to purify the Church through persecution. In my opinion, otherwise the Church could not be awakened or purified in our time, because the confusion, the heresies in doctrine, morals, and liturgy have become so widespread and deeply penetrated into the life of the Church.
So, in my opinion, there must be a strong intervention by Divine Providence to awaken the Church. Perhaps a persecution, a kind of time in the catacombs, would be good for the Church. But in any case, it is the Lord who has all things in His hands. It is the Lord who will determine the time of the catacombs, the time of persecution, not the governments.
Christ is the head. Christ is the King. Christ is the ruler of the world. We have to have this trust, this hope, and to live, even in this difficult situation, our Christian faith with joy, because Christ is risen. Christ is the victor.
In this situation, we should now strengthen the family, because we are almost all over the world forced to remain at home. This is also a time to develop the virtues of the family, to transmit the faith within the family, and to be domestic churches.
John-Henry Westen: You’ve had a lot of experience with that. In your book Christus Vincit, which, by the way, I encourage everyone to get a copy of, as it has received much praise from around the world, there’s a specific reason it’s important to get Christus Vincit right now. If they get it and haven’t already done so, they’ll be able to read that you yourself experienced the deprivation of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Why don’t you tell us a little about that now, and what you and your family did then?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, I did have this experience. Therefore, I speak with knowledge and personal experience. This gives me the conviction that even this difficult time we are now witnessing will bear fruit for our faith, for our Church, and for the renewal of the Church. We have to accept this from the hands of God. But at the same time, as did the first Christians, the so-called apologists, we must also become defenders of the rights of Christians. In this time especially, the Holy See and the episcopates should protest when there is discrimination or an unreasonable, disproportionate prohibition of worship. We have to protest and make an apology in defense of the rights of Christians.
John-Henry Westen: Beautiful. One of the things that comes up in your book, and that some have mentioned to me, is your admonition to families to be open to life. You actually took issue with terms like “natural family planning” and “responsible parenthood,” because they seem to limit God’s control and place man in control.
A question that came out of that was: how can a couple, if they do need to space their children, act rightly? Is it wrong to abstain from sexual activity when they are aware through natural family planning of the fertile periods? What is your position on that?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: It is a very delicate issue. A Christian Catholic couple must, together and in the presence of God, decide and ask for the strength and light to simply be generous, to make an act of trust. They should say, “Lord, You are the giver of life. You should have the last word, not we.”
We are only collaborators. Of course, we are reasonable collaborators, but even so, the beginning of a new life, the beginning of a new potential citizen of heaven, is something tremendous, truly tremendous. Let us leave that decision to God.
I think this is what all the generations in the past did. These methods, even natural family planning, were not so well known. People accepted children as they came. They trusted in God. And even in difficult situations, sometimes the last child turned out to be a great gift for the Church and for humanity. If those parents had strictly applied the natural method, maybe some of these great saints and geniuses would not have been born.
So, it is a very delicate matter. I believe couples must trust in God. They must be very generous. And God will always reward the generosity of parents. He will never abandon a family, a couple, who accept all children with great generosity. This is the loving providence of our Father in Heaven. If He clothes the lilies of the field, if He feeds the birds in the sky, He will also feed the children of a large family, as He has demonstrated many times.
John-Henry Westen: Well, because God wants to feed us with Himself, how do Catholics all over the world, who are missing our Lord and longing to be fed by Him, call out most effectively to Jesus to come back to us?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: I think that those Catholics who are now deprived of Mass and Holy Communion should make acts of spiritual communion. This is also very spiritually fruitful. There were times when Catholic families, during persecution, were deprived of Holy Mass and Holy Communion for years, yet the Lord still lived in their hearts.
In these cases, they must begin to live a more intense interior life, doing examinations of conscience, practicing virtues, and making acts of contrition. When there is no priest, one can still make a perfect act of contrition out of love for God, with the intention of going to confession when possible. In this way, the Lord forgives sins. Also, ask the Lord to send a priest, and God will provide. There were very impressive examples of this, like the Irish Catholics during the penal times, when there were hidden Masses and they were persecuted. Even now, in this time, when public Masses may be prohibited, Catholics can still go spiritually to the church. If churches are open, they can visit our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament, even if there is no Mass. Adore Him. If someone cannot go physically, they can send their holy guardian angel to represent them before the Lord in the tabernacle and adore Him in their place. So there are, for example, some possibilities to practice our Catholic faith.
John-Henry Westen: Absolutely. And let me ask you, do you see, in this unique time of upheaval, a tie-in to the warning or chastisement of Our Lady of Fatima?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: I don’t know if this is a direct connection, but the extent of the prohibition of Mass to such a degree is quite evident. It already has a sign, an apocalyptic sign. We cannot deny this.
The Third Secret of Fatima, or rather the third part of the secret, speaks about the persecution of the Church. As I said, this disproportionate and unreasonable prohibition of the Masses, decided by governments and, unfortunately, also by bishops, is already a kind of persecution of the Church, of the Mass.
So, yes, it could have a tie, a link, to the message of Fatima. I think so. Because the signs of the apocalypse, or of the end times, can come slowly. This could already be the beginning of the situation described by Our Lady in the third part of the Secret of Fatima, maybe.
John-Henry Westen: Archbishop Viganò has just come out to say that he doesn’t believe the full Third Secret of Fatima has been revealed. I believe he’s following the perspective of Italian writer Antonio Socci. Do you have any thoughts on that?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: In my book Christus Vincit, I spoke about this. I have no access to the sources, so I cannot say with certainty. But I’m only reasoning from my observation and, in some way, from common sense.
In the presence of Pope John Paul II, Cardinal Ratzinger, who later became Pope Benedict XVI, said, “This is the third part of the secret.” So for me, it’s difficult to imagine that a person with such high moral standards, like Cardinal Ratzinger and Pope John Paul II, would deceive the entire world by saying, “This is all.”
Cardinal Ratzinger said this, and we could hear this from many sources. In Fatima, it was revealed and published as the manuscript of Sister Lucia. But in the biography of Sister Lucia, there is an observation, if I remember well, where it is written that Our Lady already told Sister Lucia to write down the secret. But she also gave her an explanation. So it could be that the text of the secret was that part which was revealed, but maybe there was another supplementary text with an explanation. I don’t know. It could be.
John-Henry Westen: Finally, would you like to join Cardinal Burke, who, in 2017, during the centenary of Fatima, spoke at the Rome Life Forum, calling for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary? He didn’t deny that Pope John Paul II consecrated the whole world to the Immaculate Heart, but he asked that it be done again, and this time according to her explicit wishes.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: I agree, because Our Lady asked specifically for the consecration of Russia. Why should the Pope not do this? It would bring many blessings. She said that the Pope will do it. He will consecrate Russia to my Immaculate Heart, and then there will be given to the world a time of peace, and Russia will be converted. We have not yet reached a time of peace. What we see now is quite the opposite of peace. Russia has not yet been converted in the full sense.
A full conversion would mean that the Russian Christians, the Orthodox, would be united with the true Church, with the See of Rome. This has not yet happened. Therefore, I think that the consecration of Russia should be done in the way Our Lady asked for, explicitly naming Russia and in moral unity with all the bishops.
John-Henry Westen: Bishop Schneider, thank you so very much for your time. And as we conclude, could you please give us all your blessing?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes.
Dominus vobiscum, et cum, spiritu tuo. Et benedictio dei omnipotentis, Patris et Filii et spiritus Santi descendant, super vos et maneat semper
John-Henry Westen: Amen. Thank you, Bishop Schneider, from all of us here at LifeSite News and the countless Catholics around the world who love you and pray for you every day.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Thank you very much, Christus Vincit!
John-Henry Westen: Christus Vincit indeed. Alleluia.
And God bless all of you. We’ll see you next time right here on the John-Henry Westen Show.
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