Bishop Athanasius Schneider, O.R.C. Lecture

Interview Organization: The Paulus Institute
Date: April 2, 2023
Welcome to this lecture video featuring Bishop Athanasius Schneider. In it, he discusses important lessons on faith and the priesthood from St. John Chrysostom, the liturgy, and the significance of the voice of the people. Watch the video to learn more.
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Dear Reverend Fathers, Priests, dear Brothers and Sisters,

I greet you, and I would like to share with you some of my thoughts on the theme of the Holy Liturgy and the Renewal of the Church.

Ever since apostolic times, the Church has shown deep concern to offer a type of worship that would meet the exigency of God’s utter holiness. Therefore, she has always paid worship to God the Father, particularly in the Latin tradition, praying through Christ in the Holy Spirit, since our Lord instructed us to adore God in spirit and in truth.

In fact, it is only in the Holy Spirit that one can truly adore Christ, that is, recognize His divinity. Hence, awareness of God’s deep holiness is the first condition and is typical of Christian worship. Naturally, it demands typical gestures of adoration, such as bowing, prostrations, and also silence, which expresses an interior attitude of faith and reverence.

The most authoritative witness to these fundamental attitudes of Christian worship is the Book of the Apocalypse, which presents to the eyes of Christians the heavenly liturgy as the real model for worship on earth. The reference to the model of heavenly worship is the main and constant characteristic of the liturgy throughout the two millennia, from the Apostolic Fathers up to the Magisterium of the Second Vatican Council.

From the multiple witnesses to this attitude, I would like to mention Saint John Chrysostom, a holy Bishop and Doctor of the Church from the fourth and fifth centuries.

The liturgy of the Church must be modeled after the heavenly liturgy of the angels. Therefore, the Church on earth, in worshiping and adoring the Divine Majesty, especially in the Eucharistic liturgy, has the duty to imitate the angels, both in interior disposition (purity of heart) and in exterior gestures.

St. John Chrysostom, also known by the title Doctor Eucharisticus, is particularly noteworthy in this regard. The tradition of the Byzantine Church attributes to him the authorship of the Liturgy of the Anaphora that bears his name. In his sermons, this great saint repeatedly emphasizes the presence of angels in the earthly liturgy and invites the faithful to worship God in spiritual union with them.

St. John calls the angels co-servants of the faithful, who celebrate the Eucharistic liturgy with joy. In his homilies, he describes the spiritual union of the worshiping faithful with the angels in such a way that there appears to be no difference between the voices of the faithful and the voices of the angels, as if they sing together with one identical voice, particularly in the hymn of the Sanctus.

The foundation of this union is Christ Himself, through His sacrifice on the Cross. Only because of the Incarnation of the Son of God can the Sanctus, once sung only by the angels in heaven, now be sung by the faithful on earth. Christ Himself brought the angelic hymn down to earth, and therefore, the Church is able to sing this hymn in her liturgy in union with the angels.

The Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy (Sacrosanctum Concilium) of the Second Vatican Council expresses this same thought in the following affirmation: “Jesus Christ, the High Priest of the new and everlasting covenant, assuming human nature, brought to this earthly exile the hymn that is sung for all eternity in the heavenly dwellings. He gathers around Himself the universal human community in order to sing, together with her, this divine song of praise.”
(Sacrosanctum Concilium, §83)

St. John Chrysostom exhorts the faithful, giving them concrete instructions on how to imitate the angels in worship. We may paraphrase his exhortation as follows: “In the same manner as the angels sing, sing also, you, together with them. In the same manner as the angels stand upright, stand reverently with your soul. In the same manner as the angels circle the throne of God, let your thoughts also circle around God.”

Let us now hear his own words: “Do you recognize this voice? Is it our voice, or the voice of the seraphim? It is, at once, our voice and the voice of the seraphim, thanks to Christ, who has broken down the dividing wall and has reconciled heaven and earth, making the two to be one. Indeed, this hymn was once sung only in heaven, but from the moment the Lord deigned to descend to earth, He brought this song also to us.”

Therefore, the great pontiff, standing at this sacred table to offer the spiritual worship, to offer the bloodless sacrifice, does not invite us only to listen devotedly, but after having remembered first the cherubim and then the seraphim. He exhorts all of us to send up to heaven this tremendous song, as we belong to the choir of the angels. Then he invites us to lift up our thoughts from the earth and cheer up everyone with these words, sing together with the seraphim. Stand up together with the seraphim. Together with them, extend the wings of your mind. Together with them, encircle the throne of the king. End of quotation

In his magisterial work on the priesthood, St Jean Chrysostom says that the hands of the priest have to be sacred because they touch the body of Christ. I quote, consider how the hands have to be that touch so many saints? How the tongue has to be that pronounces those words, and how much more purity and sanctity must the soul have who welcomes as such a great spirit. End of quotation. The following words from the homily on Isaiah illustrate very clearly this aspect of the liturgical theology of this saint. I quote, which wonder is the fact that although you are standing in the liturgy together with the seraphim, God permitted you to touch those things which the seraphim do not dare to touch.

The Prophet says, then flew one of the seraphim to me, having in his hand a burning coal. Soul, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. That altar is the prefigure, and the image of this our altar now, in the same way as that fire is the prefigure and the image of this spiritual fire. The seraphim did not dare to touch the coal with his hands but took it with the tongs, the tongs, whereas you take it with your hand, the priest. When you consider the dignity of the gift which is laid down on the altar, this is greater than the contact with the seraphim. And when you reflect on the love which God has towards man, then you will recognize that he has not despised our weakness when he laid down on the altar the gift of His love. End of quotation.

The more the faithful recognize that the Eucharistic Body of Christ is the greatest sign of sanctity and of the love of God, the more they have to answer to this gift in an interior attitude of gratitude, of humility, and love. From this interior act illuminated by the face flows naturally an exterior behavior which expresses adoration and loving reverence.

Therefore, the exterior gestures of adoration and reverence in the liturgy cannot be considered secondary. The very suggestive examples of the behavior of the worshiping angels as described in the Bible remain a point of reference for the manner in which the Church on earth has to worship when she desires to worship God in the truth, in Christ, and in the Spirit. According to the teaching of the Fathers of the Church, these angelic examples are given in order to be imitated by the faithful, and these examples are very concrete and accessible to man. The first thing is this: to be interiorly orientated toward God and His glory, toward His face, and His face is ultimately seen in Jesus Christ on the cross and in the Sacrament of the Eucharist. Then follows this: to recognize God’s majesty, God’s holiness, and His love. Then comes this important condition: to ask the merciful God for the grace of interior purity. From these flows, then, exterior acts.

Exterior act, that means to make himself also exterior. Small to bow, to genuflect, to prostrate, then follow other typical exterior acts of loving reverence such as to pronounce worthy words of praise and adoration like the Sanctus, to protect the sacred with a veil or behind steps and rails, iconostasis, communion rail, to kiss the holy objects, the altar, to keep the silence during liturgy, to touch the most sacred reality, Eucharistic Body, with consecrated hands. Anointed hands mean veiled. When the seraphim has veiled his hand and taken the tongs to take the coal, then the priest has consecrated hands. This is like a kind of veil that enables him to touch the Body of Christ. The faithful have the unique privilege to see and touch the incarnated God in the Eucharistic mystery.

Therefore, they must show a special reverence towards this unfathomable mystery. Therefore, they, and again the faithful, find in the ancients an example for imitation in their exterior behavior. In mentioning the reverent attitude of the angels in front of the empty tomb of Christ, St John Chrysostom exhorts the faithful to consider the angelic example, taking into account that in the Eucharistic liturgy, there is not the empty tomb of Christ but the presence of the living Lord Himself.

Consequently, the behavior in the presence of the Eucharistic Body of Christ should be even more reverent than in front of the empty tomb. As the angels had reverence in front of the empty tomb of Christ, we have more still, because we have no more empty tomb, but we have the Eucharist. Even so, St John Chrysostom lays stress very much upon the interior purity of the soul as the first important condition for an authentic participation in the liturgy. He nevertheless exhorts the faithful surprisingly often about the exterior gestures. I stress this, surprisingly often he stresses also the exterior gestures of adoration, of the reverent behavior. In doing so, he adduces the example of reverent gestures of the angels to be imitated at the church building. I mean the church as a building. St John Chrysostom calls it the place of angels, of archangels, the kingdom of God, the Heaven itself. Beautiful.

Our churches, which we build here on earth, have to be, according to St John, I repeat, the place of angels, the kingdom of God, Heaven itself. He continues to explain this by saying, The church is heaven. You can imagine this in this way. If someone were to introduce you to Heaven, certainly you would not dare to speak to anyone, even when you saw your father or your brother. In the same way, here in the church, one should speak only about spiritual things, because here is heaven. You should be completely filled with the great fear and reverence even before the tremendous moment of the new consecration. Be awful and attentive before you see the holy veils extended upon the altar.

In the first century, during the consecration, they extended veils on the altar. The altar was not facing the people. Celibacy. Veils covered. Fourth century. And so this witness of this only, I gave you one witness of one of the Fathers. We can collect so many other witnesses. These manifest unequivocally the truth that the first and fundamental characteristic of the Christian worship is the awful adoration of the majesty of the Triune God in the Eucharistic liturgy.

This awful adoration finds her concretization in the adoration of the Eucharistic Body of Christ in the moment of His offering as the immolated Lamb upon the altar, and in the moment of receiving Him in the Holy Communion. The revealed Word of God itself in the Holy Scripture presents us this characteristic as the indispensable norm of true worship, as it is particularly evident, for example, in the Book of Isaiah six and the Book of the Apocalypse.

The Church of the Apostles and of the Fathers implemented faithfully and clearly this first and basic characteristic of the liturgy. This is the vertical, transcendent, authentic Christocentric dimension, which is expressed through the acts of adoration. And so, when we celebrate the liturgy when we celebrate the liturgy and the priest, we must not put the creatures, the priest, in the center, nor the angels, nor the human being, not even the celebrant priest, but we have to put in the center God, the incarnate God, the Eucharistic Christ.

The Magisterium of the Second Vatican Council on liturgy remembers precisely this perennial law of the Christian worship, in so much as the liturgy has to reflect the very nature of the Church. I quote: the human has to be directed to the Divine and subordinated to Him. First, the visible has to be directed to the invisible and subordinated to Him. The action has to be directed to the contemplation and subordinated to Him. And the present things have to be directed to the future city that we seek. End of quotation.

This first and most important principle of the liturgy, of the lex orandi, which is rooted in the Word of God, was not only faithfully transmitted by the teaching of the Fathers of the Church, but was concretely realized in the manner in which the liturgy was celebrated in their times. Every time the Church tried to reform the liturgy, sometimes renewing or improving it, when there were practices aligned or contrary to the very nature of divine worship, then she applied as a criterion the so-called ancient norm of the holy Fathers, Pristina sanctorum Patrum norma.

The reform of the liturgy, or better said, the renewal of the liturgy as desired by the Council of Trent and Second Vatican Council, established this very criterion.

St Pius the Fifth, publishing the Roman Missal in 1570, was referring in his Bull Quo Primum to the ancient norm of the Holy Fathers. The same phrase was used by the Second Vatican Council. The ancient norm of the Holy Fathers is precisely the norm that stresses the sacred, the divine, the heavenly, the eternal, by acts of adoration and their exterior expressions.

All practical norms in the liturgy, and even more, those which should be revised or changed, must have this aim: to express more clearly the sacred, as demanded also by the Second Vatican Council, number 21 of Sacrosanctum Concilium. The same phrase was cited by Pope Paul the Sixth in the Apostolic Constitution Missale Romanum (1969), with which he approved the new Roman Missal.

The return to the Fathers, without doubt, should not have as an effect the impoverishment of the sacred, of the transcendent, and of the acts of adoration in the liturgy. On the contrary, it should lead to more acts and gestures of adoration, sacred love, and faith. To impoverish the liturgy by reducing the signs of adoration and of the sacred, while justifying such a reform as a return to the norm of the Fathers, is not only an evident contradiction to the patristic witnesses but also represents an attitude which the universal Magisterium condemned as liturgical archaeologism.

For Pius the Twelfth, it would be meaningful to conclude this short overview of some thoughts from the Fathers of the Church on sacredness with an actualization of their teaching and of their examples, presenting some concrete suggestions.

It is, for an authentic renewal of the Church according to the teaching of the Magisterium, a liturgical renewal which would stress more the Christocentric and transcendent character of the liturgy and the acts of adoration. As shown by the examples of the angelic worship, this would certainly come closer to the spirit of the Bible and of the Fathers, closer to the norm of the Holy Fathers.

Concretely, this could be realized by practical norms like the following, which are, besides, already proven by centuries-old experience. So I would like to suggest ten examples, ten propositions:

First, the tabernacle, where Jesus Christ, the incarnate God, is really present under the species of bread, should be placed in the center of the sanctuary. Because in no other sign on this earth is God, the Emmanuel, so really present and so near to man as in the tabernacle. The tabernacle, as the sign indicating and containing the real presence of Christ, should therefore be closer to the altar and constitute with the altar the one central sign indicating the Eucharistic mystery: the sacrament, the tabernacle, and the sacrifice. The altar should therefore not be opposed to or separated too much from the tabernacle, but they both should be in the central place and close together in the sanctuary.

Though what the tabernacle and the altar together should do is direct all the attention.

Second, during the Eucharistic liturgy, at least during the Eucharistic Prayer, when Christ, the Lamb of God, is immolated, the face of the priest should not be seen by the faithful. In this moment, the seraphim covered their faces when adoring God. Instead, the priest’s face should be turned toward God, toward the sign of the icon of the Crucified Lord on the cross, or toward the tabernacle.

Third, there should be more signs of adoration by means of genuflections, especially every time the priest touches the consecrated host. He should first genuflect.

Fourth, the faithful, approaching to receive the Lamb of God in Holy Communion, should greet and receive Him with an act of adoration, kneeling. Such a gesture would be a little biblical proskynesis. Does this not mean prostration? Indeed, which moment is for the faithful more sacred than this moment of the encounter with the Lord, the moment of communion?

Fifth, there should be more room for silence during the liturgy, especially during those moments which most express the mystery of redemption. Particularly when the sacrifice of the Cross is made present during the Eucharistic Prayer, it is very fitting to make these moments silent.

Sixth, there should be more exterior signs which express the dependence of the priest on Christ the High Priest, signs which would more clearly show that the words of greeting, Dominus vobiscum, and the blessings of the celebrant depend on and flow from Christ the High Priest, not from the priest as a private person. Not “I greet you” but “The Lord is with you.” Not “I bless you,” but Christ blesses you.

And therefore, such signs could be: As was practiced for centuries, the kissing of the altar. Before the priest greets the people, he has to kiss the altar to indicate: this now flows not from me, but from the altar to you. The Lord be with you. And before your blessing, also, first kiss the altar and then bless the people. This was practiced for a millennium, and unfortunately, the new rite abolished it.

Or bowing toward the altar cross, when it is to indicate: here is One more important than I. Here is Christ.

Often during the liturgy, the priest, this was in the old rite, when he pronounced the name of Jesus, had to turn to the cross and make a bow to turn the attention to Him, not to me.

Seven, there should be more signs that express the unfathomable mystery of the Redemption. This could be achieved, for example, through the veiling of the liturgical objects, because veiling is an act of the liturgy of the angels: veiling the chalice, veiling the paten with the humeral by the subdeacon, for example. The use of the bursa, which hides the corporal; veiling the hands of the bishop when he celebrates solemnly; the use of communion rails as a means of veiling the altar.

Similar signs could also include the signs of the cross made by the priest during the Eucharistic Prayer, and by the faithful in other moments of the liturgy. When we sign ourselves with the cross, this is a sign of blessing. In ancient liturgical times, the people made the sign of the cross during the Gloria, at the end of the Gloria, at the end of the Credo, and during the Sanctus Benedictus at liberare nos Domine. These are also small expressions of the mystery.

Eight, there should be a constant sign that expresses the mystery also by means of human language. That is to say, by the use of Latin. A sacred language is demanded by the Second Vatican Council in the celebration of every Holy Mass and in each place. There could be, as a suggestion, a part of the Eucharistic Prayer always said in Latin.

Nine, all those who exercise an active role during the liturgy, such as reading the Word of God, the lectors, and pronouncing the prayer of the faithful, should always be dressed in liturgical vestments, and only men, not women, because this is already an exercise within the sanctuary. Even reading the lecture is already directed to this liturgy, which we are celebrating, to Christ, and therefore should be performed only by men, clothed in liturgical vestments.

Ten, the music and the songs during the liturgy should reflect more truly the sacred character. Therefore, they should come closer to the song of the angels, as this is demanded by the Sanctus. In order to be truly able to sing with one voice with the angels, not only the Sanctus, but the entire Holy Mass, it is necessary that the heart, the mind, and the voice of the priest and of the faithful be directed toward the Lord. And this must be manifested by exterior signs and gestures as well.

Thank you for your attention.

The voice of the people is the voice of God, and you represent the people. And even more, you are a layperson, and also a member of the common priesthood. And so, you spoke very well, on this, I agree.

But we also have to consider the reality in which we live: in the vast majority of parishes, the people do not know the ancient liturgy. And so, for many of them, they are not psychologically ready to change completely to that attitude. We have to consider the psychological aspect as well.

Therefore, I suggested introducing gradually these ten points, which are expressed in the ancient liturgy and which correspond to the idea of the Second Vatican Council, due to the Fathers.

I remember once, I was in Brazil, and a very simple Indian woman told me this story. She was once obliged by her parish priest to receive Holy Communion in the hand. He said to her, “This is now the will of the Church,” and so on. She was very devoted to the Holy Eucharist, and so she obeyed the priest.

She was a simple woman, but she felt in her heart that this was not correct. “I receive my love in the hand?” Because in her custom, among these Indians, they had the tradition that when an important person visits your home, you must greet him, and before you give him your hand, you have to wash your hands in his presence. And only with clean hands, which have not touched anything, do you offer your hand to the guest.

So when she went to Communion, she always remembered this custom. And it was a contradiction to her own culture. She said, “I have touched money, and so on during Mass, and with this hand I go and receive my Lord? I am giving more honor to my guest in my house than to my Lord in the church.”

Then she went to the parish priest and told him this. He said to her, “No, you are not correct. You have to know that Jesus gave Communion in the hand. So you must receive it like this.”

And she answered him, “Reverend Father, where is this written? In which place of the Bible is this written?”

And he said, “Yes, at the Last Supper. Jesus gave Holy Communion to the apostles in the hand.”

And she replied, “Reverend Father, but I do not belong to the number of the apostles.”

Oh, beautiful. She was a wise woman, even though illiterate. And this priest was a real Pharisee.

So this is one of the answers: only apostles were there. And they were priests. No laymen were present. Not even Our Lady was there.

Second: the word Take and eat is not a correct translation. Please notice this, because in the Greek, we have to go to the original text. The Greek word lambanein means receive.

So we have to translate: receive and eat, not take and eat. In Latin also, in Latin tradition, it is also accipite. The same word Jesus used when He appeared to the apostles and gave them the Holy Spirit. He said: Accipite Spiritum Sanctum, receive the Holy Spirit, not take the Holy Spirit.

It is the same word in Greek and in Latin. And for example, all the Oriental languages, the Slavic languages, I am living in Kazakhstan, and we use the Russian language, and even Polish, and all these Slavic languages translate: receive, not take. Receive and eat.

The first thing the priest has to do is serve God. And when he serves God rightly and in the right manner, then he serves the people also. But when he substitutes this and serves first the human being and then God, that is pagan. It is pagan.

We have to put God first. The first commandment is God. And when we venerate God, then and only then can we truly help our neighbor. Otherwise, we are making human adoration, mutual adoration, and that is paganism.

Yes, there is this other common phrase: to make a throne. This is a quotation from Cyril of Jerusalem. Well, yes, but that was only in a specific time in the Church. The Church is growing. That was the fourth century. The Church is deepening her attitude toward this unspeakable mystery of Christ, His presence in the little host.

So we are growing also in the exterior forms of veneration. And the Church has found a more sure manner. Because when you receive in the hands, there is always the greater danger that some fragments of the host can be lost, can fall down.

And so, when this is the greatest treasure, why would I choose a manner that is not as sure? Even if I can describe it poetically, “a throne,” and so on, beautiful, yes, but I must look for what is more sure. Not what is more poetically beautiful, but what is more certain.

That is one point.

The other is this: the manner of today, to receive Communion in the hand, is not the same as what was described by those who speak about making a throne. Because in those times, Communion was received on the right hand, not the left.

Today, it is received in the left hand, and then taken with the right hand, with two fingers, like picking up a chip or a piece of cake, and put into the mouth. This was never the practice of the Church, even in the first centuries.

This is a gesture invented by the Calvinists.

Yes, and your teachers have not said this. This was not how it was done. In that older tradition, they placed the host in the right hand. And then, you had to bow down with your head to your hand, and you picked up the host directly with your mouth.

You were not allowed to take the host with your fingers, not even to touch it in that way.

These gestures that describe “making a throne”, yes, beautiful, but better to make a throne in your heart. That is much better for Christ. And to choose a manner that is more sure and more deeply reverent.