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Can the pope ban the traditional Latin Mass? Is the SSPX in schism? Can you attend Mass there? All these questions and more will be answered by Bishop Athanasius Schneider in just a moment. You are not going to want to miss this interview.
Start with the rumors that we hear about the potential revision of the “Summorum Pontificum.” There are a lot of rumors swirling around. There are some credible people on the internet who have sources that they are citing that say it is possible that the Vatican might revise the “Summorum Pontificum.” It might even require priests who say the traditional Latin Mass, and the FSSP, to concelebrate the Novus Ordo. What have you heard about these rumors, and what are your thoughts in regards to them?
I also heard these rumors, but there are no documents. Therefore, what we say remains a hypothesis. But if it were so, I think it would be a great damage to the life of the church because the traditional liturgy is a treasure of the entire church, not only of the present day, but also it is a treasure of the Church of the past centuries and millennia. It is a treasure of the saints. Almost all the saints whom we know grew up in this form of the holy liturgy. Therefore, I think that such an act, if it were to limit the use of the traditional liturgy, would be an abuse of power, clearly.
I think that in such a possible hypothetical situation, if it will really happen, then the priests, I think, can continue to celebrate this Mass because it is the Mass of the entire church. Also, the faithful had the right to what was holy, and the church always acknowledged, maybe not in an official manner, or in a kind of catacombs mass, but I think that the faithful, and especially the young people, will not allow themselves to be deprived of this great treasure of faith, of spirituality, which has nourished their Christian life in this liturgy.
Your Excellency, can Rome, can the Roman Pontiff, can they force traditional priests to say the new Mass?
They can do it by right, but I think it would be a violation of the spirituality in which the priests grew up. The priests of the traditional communities who were ordained in this liturgy and were trained and grew up and celebrated until now, have only celebrated this form of the liturgy. I think it would be to force them to celebrate the new Mass would be a violation, a kind of spiritual violation of their rights, which the Church gave them when they were ordained in this traditional Mass liturgy. It is the same that the church cannot force someone from another rite, for example, to celebrate another rite.
And these two forms of the Mass, the Novus Ordo and the traditional one, are really, when we are honest, they are two different rites, not only forms, because this is a very great difference, and so I think that they should not be forced to do this.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider is our guest, the auxiliary bishop of Kazakhstan. Your Excellency, just to follow up on that question, let us say the worst-case scenario happens and “Summorum Pontificum” is revised, and the Vatican asks these priests, FSSP priests for instance, to concelebrate in the ordinary form of the Mass, or the Novus Ordo, and I imagine under that circumstance, there will be many priests in the FSSP who will refuse to do so. What will happen to those priests under those circumstances?
Well, we do not know what consequences the Vatican or the bishops will undertake for a refusal of concelebration, but the concelebration was never a requirement in the entire history of the Church as a sign of unity with the local bishop or the Pope. Therefore, let us say, when the Oriental churches in the past centuries united themselves with Rome, the priests of the Oriental rites were not asked to concelebrate, and even the practice of concelebration was very limited in the past, more than 1500 years in the church. Even concelebration was forbidden by the old Canon Law, and only in two cases for the priests, only in one case. It was during their priesthood ordination. It was a part of the rite to concelebrate with the bishop, but no more. And therefore, such an obligation will contradict the entire history of the church and the law of the liturgy. And therefore, I think it would also be an abuse of power to force a priest to concelebrate.
We have about a minute before we go to a break here, just about 60 seconds, real quick. Would those priests have any recourse? Would they have to get canon lawyers involved and make appeals to the Vatican to try to get out of whatever penalties might be enforced?
Well, in this case, when the Vatican itself will issue such a norm, there cannot be an appeal against the Vatican.
Hold that thought, but I would like to ask you, Bishop, about the SSPX. Now, I bet most people would not know that you were sent as an observer to the SSPX by the Vatican, which I think gives you incredible insight into this. There are a lot of myths and misconceptions about what the average layperson thinks and knows about the SSPX, Society of Saint Pius the Tenth. I myself have suffered through some of those, not understanding. I do not go to SSPX chapels. However, I think I had false information for the longest time. So maybe we can start by telling us what the exact canonical status of the SSPX is today?
Well, the Society of Pius the Tenth was founded by Archbishop Lefebvre, a very, I think, holy man, a man of God who had a lot of merits in a very difficult time of the church, even during the council and after the council. He founded the Society of Christopher the Tenth almost 50 years ago in Switzerland, and it got the approbation of the bishop there and a document which placed this from the Vatican in those times. But after, because of the reasons we know, he wanted to exclusively celebrate the Traditional Mass, and then the critiques about some problematic statements of the Vatican Council ultimately led to a conflict. And then the Vatican, the Holy See, proposed a solution in 1988 to give them a status, a canonical status, and a promise of a bishop. But the archbishop, Lefebvre, evaluated the situation as not sure and dramatic. He rejected all his candidates whom he proposed to the Pope for the episcopate, and so it was created, really like a mistrust between him. And so it was for him a sign that the Holy See will not approve a future society of Pius the Tenth, which will also propose critiques, or constructive critiques of some expressions of Vatican Two, and go in this direction in any case. And then we know it was the fact of the consecrations of the bishops in 1988, and this was, as a consequence, the excommunication of the archbishop and ordained bishops. But then it was the Holy See, and also the Society of Christ the Tenth, maintained nevertheless, contacts and to seek a solution for the benefit of the faithful, lastly, and for the church, for the benefit of the church. And so during the pontificate of Pope Benedict the 16th, there were made two very important steps were made to normalize the situation.
It was in 2007. Benedict issued a much-appropriate “Summorum Pontificum,” giving the freedom to all priests to celebrate this Mass. In some way, he reestablished the right of the traditional Mass in the church, which was always one of the main demands of Archbishop Lefebvre and the Society of Pius the Tenth. And then, the other step in 2009, Pope Benedict lifted the excommunication on these four bishops, and so they are no longer excommunicated. Therefore, they are not outside the church because excommunication was lifted. They are only in a canonically not yet recognized situation, and therefore, some of their acts are illicit, but they are valid, such as the celebration of the Holy Mass.
Then came two other important steps under the pontificate of the current Pope Francis. Pope Francis granted to all the priests of the Society of Pius the Tenth the faculties of confession, which extend all over the world. So it was a very generous act, and so it is difficult to say that these priests are outside the church or schismatics when they have and when they possess the faculties, ordinary faculties of confession, given by the pope himself. And then the pope authorized the bishops or the parish priests to grant the priests of the Society of Pius the Tenth the faculties to assist canonically at matrimonies, to marriages. And there are several bishops in the church who, by the decree, gave to the priests of the Society of Pius the Tenth the general faculty to assist marriages in their dioceses. And even though there are some bishops who wrote in this context that the faithful who will assist at these celebrations of the marriage by a priest of the Society of Pius the Tenth can licitly assist in the Holy Mass which will be celebrated. So we see there is a situation that is always closer to a canonical normalization, and this is good. We have to be happy that the situation can be resolved and the Society of Pius the Tenth can be present and operate inside the church for the benefit of the church, therefore, through renewal of the church, for the keeping of the tradition of the faith and the liturgy, and the spiritual life. Because basically, the Society of Pius the Tenth does nothing other than what the Church believed, as the Church worshipped, as the Church lived until the Council of the centuries.
And so we have to hope that they will get the full canonical recognition. I hope it will be good, and then the Society of Pius the Tenth will be a normal reality like other realities inside the church. It is necessary for our time, in this crisis, in this time of darkness and confusion, we do need new communities, a new presence of a community and priests and lay people who simply keep the faith of all ages and the Mass of all ages, and this will do the Society of Pius the Tenth with their priests and faithful.
Your Excellency, we have about three minutes left in our conversation, and I was wondering, what about the laity? You have your average layperson who, you know, cannot figure out, parse through all these canonical statuses and the confusion with all these different things. Can they take refuge at a Society parish or a Society chapel? Rather, would that be licit? Would that be allowed?
I think when there is no other possibility, of course, because they can confess licitly, to go to the confession. This is with the approval of the Pope. And then the same priests who gave them the absolution, it would be strange that they cannot assist at his Holy Mass. The sacraments, the Holy Mass, are given for the salvation of souls, for the benefit of the souls. I think that when it is difficult for normal Catholics to reach a traditional Mass, and there is a possibility closer to the Society of Pius the Tenth to go there, they can go there to get a good catechism for the children or for young people. Therefore, I think that since they are not outside the church, with these acts which I enumerated already, but have some unresolved canonical problems, it seems to me that it is licit that lay people can go when there is a reason.
We have about a minute and a half left in our conversation with Bishop Athanasius Schneider. Okay, so going back to the rumors surrounding the revision of “Summorum Pontificum.” If that were to happen, and God forbid, but if that were to happen, how would that affect the SSPX? Would those priests also be asked to concelebrate the Novus Ordo? Would they do that? Any thoughts there?
I think not. And even if they are asked, they will not do this, because they are not yet under complete submission to the Holy See. Therefore, they will not be forced, I think. And in this case, I think if the other priests of the Fraternity of Saint Peter or others will be forced to concelebrate a new Mass, I think that there will be priests who will join the Society of Pius the Tenth because they have, in this case, some more independence to keep the tradition of the Church. But I hope that it will not happen. Let us pray first that the Holy Spirit will illuminate the Pope not to limit the motu proprio of Pope Benedict XVI, and also that the Society of Pius the Tenth can receive a fuller… Amen, amen.
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