Transcript:
Raymond Arroyo: Auxiliary Bishop of Astana, Kazakhstan, Athanasius Schneider, a well-known defender of the Catholic traditional faith, joins me this evening to share his thoughts on the agenda of the second installment of the Synod on Synodality, some controversial new consults appointed to the Vatican’s doctrinal office, and his latest book, Flee from Heresy: A Catholic Guide to Ancient and Modern Errors. Please welcome back to the program, Bishop Athanasius Schneider. Your Excellency, thank you for being here.
Tell me, why did you decide it was necessary to write a book about heresies? First of all, tell us what a heresy is, and why revive and remind us of the concept now?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Well, we are living in a time of unprecedented doctrinal crisis and confusion in the life of the church, and so it is a requirement of my episcopal duty to help the faithful, to strengthen them in faith and to help them to be protected of the spiritual poison of heresy, because heresy is a distortion of the divine truth which God revealed us in several forms. The heresy formally defined is a denial, obstinate denial, of a divinely revealed truth. This is the official definition of heresy. There are other forms of material heresy when there is not a formal statement, but people are speaking errors, maybe without being conscious of this, and then are simple errors of doctrine which do not directly contradict a dogma of faith.
Raymond Arroyo: Bishop, I love in the book you quote Origen, who says that, you know, heresy is really like lights on cliffs to allure and destroy vessels in quest of refuge, so that the prince of the world lights fires of false knowledge in order to destroy men. I thought that was an apt visual of what a heresy is. You have assembled here a compendium of heresies, Gnosticism and Pantheism, Arianism, Wycliffism, rejecting the papal primacy, and Freemasonry. Why is it necessary to remind faithful people of these errors from the past and the present?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Well, to say that there were always heresies in the life of the church, and will be, because the church is a militant church, and we have to fight for the truth. We have to fight for Christ. We have to fight for souls from the darkness of error. The heresies, as Origen mentioned, have this seductive power to seduce people by apparent truth or half-truth, and therefore they are so dangerous. The task of the church since the apostolic times is to unmask these fake doctrines, these attempts to deceive the simple faithful.
Raymond Arroyo: Your Excellency, what is the gravest modern error or heresy that you encounter in your work today?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: I would consider the greatest modern heresy and error it be relativism, doctrinal relativism, that says that there is no permanent, perennial truth, that truth is, they say, changing according to the historical times and circumstances. Basically, relativism says that truth is a product of man. So man says what is true and what is not true. It is a complete subjectivism. So man becomes the lord of truth, or not truth. This is a direct attack against the divine primacy of God, who is the truth, Jesus Christ, and who reveals to us the truth.
Raymond Arroyo: Relative to all of this, Your Excellency, there are a number of new consultors who were appointed this week at the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith, that is, the Vatican’s doctrinal office, 28 of them to be exact. Now, most of these consultants are Italian priests and theologians. There are a few nuns, but I want to highlight two of these consulters. First, Father Maurizio Chiodi. He is a moral theologian who in 202,2 said Catholics could in some cases disregard church teaching on contraception, and then, citing Amoris Laetitia, he said, “Under certain conditions and deepening of circumstances, homosexual relationships can be the most fruitful way for homosexual couples to enjoy good relations.” Your Excellency, what do you make of this appointment to the Vatican’s doctrinal office?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Well, first, as a bishop, I cannot criticize the papal appointments. This is a task of the Pope. But I can only speak, and I do not know exactly these theologians all, but what I want to say is something in principle. So the Dicastery for the Doctrine of Faith is an advisory body for the Pope, for the Roman Pontiff, for his most important task, to keep and transmit the Catholic faith, the deposit of faith, inviolable and so integral. These dicasteries and the consultors they have tasked to help the Pope to transmit, to keep the faith integrally, inviolably. Therefore, they must be the best and most certain theologians, who are examples of fidelity to the Catholic faith. This requires the nature of the meaning of the Dicastery for the Doctrine of Faith, as well as the nature of the papal office to be the teacher of the entire church. The Roman Church is the mother and teacher of all churches since the beginning, and so the pope must, with the help of the dicastery, fulfill his first task, to strengthen the faithful in faith, as our Lord said to Saint Peter. And so, not to confuse the faithful. When there are theologians, as you mentioned, who obviously contradict the perennial teaching of the church with some trickery rhetoric, which is a gnostic method and a heretic method, they are for sure not a help for the Pope, but a contrary. So we must pray that the Pope may choose very true, faithful theologians for his advisors.
Raymond Arroyo: Your Excellency, another moral theologian also appointed to the Dicastery of the Doctrine of Faith, Peter David Guinzi. He has also been appointed, and he says, in light of Amoris Laetitia, gay couples must be reconsidered. And “We have learned that the natural law must be continually rethought.” Bishop, your reaction? And how does Amoris Laetitia have such moral and doctrinal power that it authorizes the reinvestigation, indeed the rethinking of natural law?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: I would say this is the tragedy of this document, Amoris Laetitia, with this very ambiguous language which opens the door for erroneous interpretations, erroneous application for the moral life. It is simply a tool, becomes a tool, for undermining the clear divine commandments. The Pope, the magisterium, is not above the divine commandments. He is not above the Word of God, written and transmitted in tradition, as the Second Vatican Council says in the document Dei Verbum, that the magisterium, in the first place, the Pope, is the servant. He is subject to the Word of God. He has to serve it, not to be the master or to change it, even with his rhetoric or with some alleged pastoral methods. They must correspond to the clear divine teaching.
Raymond Arroyo: As you know, Your Excellency, Pope Francis made comments at an interreligious meeting last week that are still being felt. I am still getting questions about this. He said, “Every religion is a way to arrive at God.1 There are different languages to arrive at God, but God is for all. There is only one God, and each of us has a language to arrive at God. Sikh, Muslim, Hindu, Christian, they are different paths.” Your Excellency, is every religion a path to God, and does that square with traditional Catholic teaching about Christ and the unique place his salvific power has in the world?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Such an affirmation of Pope Francis, which you quoted, is clearly against the divine revelation. It contradicts, directly, the first commandment of God, which is ever valid. “You shall not have other gods besides me.” This is so clear. And such a statement contradicts the entire Gospel, where Jesus Christ said, “No one comes to the Father except through me.” He is the only way to God. There are no other ways or paths. So in this statement, sadly, regrettably, Pope Francis plainly contradicts the first commandment of God and the entire Gospel.
Raymond Arroyo: That is a difficult thing to process, I think, for a lot of Catholics, Bishop, that you know the Pope is saying something that runs counter to the first commandment of God. How do you reconcile that? How do you reconcile that as a bishop? How do you reconcile that as a faithful Catholic?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Well, God permitted that the first Pope, Simon Peter, he renounced, denied Christ, we know, three times, and he was appointed the Vicar of Christ, and nevertheless, he denied Christ three times. So God permitted it that it could also happen in the future that a successor of Simon Peter would speak some words, some affirmations, which are contrary to the divine truth. It is rare, but it happened with Peter, and it happened in very rare cases in history. But Peter repented, and he again defended Christ and confessed him and gave his life for Christ as a martyr. So in this case today, we have to simply to pray for Pope Francis, that he may receive this grace of the Lord as Peter received, to repent and to again, clearly, courageously confess that there is no other name given to man in which they can be saved except Jesus Christ, the incarnate Son of God, the only redeemer of mankind.
Raymond Arroyo: Bishop, I want to get your take on the upcoming Synod on Synodality. It is about to begin in October. Before the Synod begins, participants will gather in retreat, and they will hold a penitential celebration led by Pope Francis. According to the Secretary General of the Synod, in this communal confession of sorts, participants will confess sins in the name of the baptized. Those sins include, and I quote, “sin against creation, against indigenous populations, against migrants, sin of using doctrine as stones to be hurled, sin against synodality, a lack of listening, communion and participation of all.” Bishop Schneider, does questioning the validity of, say, Holy Orders of women, a settled matter until recently, or attacks on marriage, constitute grave sin in your mind?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Well, the so-called sin against synodality is an invented sin. We have no such sins in the divine revelation. It is a tool to promote a new agenda in the synod, to establish new doctrines that are contrary to the divine revelation, or undermine divine revelation. Such newly established, invented doctrines in this so-called synodality are the true stones that they throw at the faithful, because they are distortions. These are hurting, harming the faithful, and putting in danger the eternal salvation. A true doctrine is not against charity. To transmit doctrine is one of the highest expressions of charity towards the neighbor, to bring them the light of truth. And the light of truth only gives us true happiness. Such confused new synodal doctrines and methods bring us ambiguity, uncertainty, and for this, no one will give their life for something which is ambiguous, which is uncertain. We will only give our lives for what is true, what is solid as a rock. Which is Christ. He is the rock. He is the truth, and only for him. With God’s grace, every Christian must be ready to give their life.
Raymond Arroyo: Your Excellency, I thought communal confession and absolution were only to be given in extreme emergencies, like in times of war. Your thoughts on creating this public penitential service to forgive these alleged sins at the start of a synod?
Well, I do not know if this will be a real sacramental general absolution in Rome. I do not know. It should not be, because the so-called general sacramental absolution, according to the church norms, is only possible in extreme situations of emergency, of danger to life, and there is no danger to life and emergency in Rome. There are plenty of priests so that people can do an individual confession of their sins according to the doctrine and practice of the church.
Raymond Arroyo: Bishop Schneider, as we have been reporting over many, many weeks, the most controversial issues from last year’s synod, women’s ordination, LGBT issues, those have now all been removed from discussion and shifted to study groups. My question is, does it concern you that those issues will not be discussed in public, but only within these groups that are being hand-selected until June of next year?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Well, I think these concerns may be because the truth must be spoken, discussed openly, and in transparency. Nothing is hidden that will not be revealed. Such methods can also be dangerous. Then, then will appear a document will suddenly appear, as we had last year with the so-called Fiducia supplicans document. Suddenly appeared a document which introduced such an abomination of giving blessings to homosexuals, evidently homosexual unions, which contradicts natural law, contradicts divine law. I hope that such commissions will not produce such a sudden document for female ordinations or other issues that will plainly contradict divine revelation or undermine it. Therefore, I think we must pray very fervently that all the true sons and daughters of the church, that God may intervene in his holy church, in the Holy See, and again, give us shepherds in Rome all over the world, who are true apostolic men, true Catholics, to serve the Lord and not the time.
Raymond Arroyo: Your Excellency, tell me how your book, Flee from Heresy, and the historical analysis it provides of these heresies, how do they help us today, dealing with all that we are seeing, and to put into context what we are seeing? What is the lesson for the faithful here?
Bishop Athanasius Schneider: Yes, we are today, witnessing the height of the so-called modernism, which is, according to the definition of Pope Pius the 10th, a synthesis of all heresies that existed, and so it is because it is completely relativistic. Therefore, it is necessary and helpful for the faithful to know that there were already so many heresies and to identify them. So when they are observing such confusion, they may say, “Oh, these were already in some way present in the past time.” We have to be aware and know our faith well. When you are concerned with bodily health, you must know the dangers to your health, the viruses, and so on. The heresies and errors are a kind of spiritual poisons and viruses which we must know to protect ourselves, to protect our children, the youth, and all the people of goodwill who sincerely seek the truth. This is the spiritual health, and therefore, to warn people of heresy, to tell them to flee from heresy, is one of the greatest acts of true charity.
Raymond Arroyo: Bishop, reading your book, it reminds me there is nothing new under the sun, including heresies. They continue to repeat themselves through time. They just take on different guises, slightly different masks. But on the whole, it is the same through line. It is the same virus, as you said. Flee from Heresy: A Catholic Guide to Ancient and Modern Errors by Bishop Athanasius Schneider is available now at bookstores everywhere and online, and of course, through the EWTN catalog. Bishop Schneider, thank you for being here.